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Gypsies

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    Bigotry isn't the same as racism, darling :)

    Of course, you haven't showed that the bigotry is unfounded, whereas with any other group its easy to show it.

    Plenty of people were saying in the 80's that black people were all muggers, thieves, drug dealers, pimps etc. They used exactly the same argument that you're using here.
  • SkiveSkive Posts: 15,282 Skive's The Limit
    Kermit wrote: »
    As you say, Skive, "you don't want to start a war with them"- and that isn't because they're charming and peaceful people who will offer you tea and cake.

    No, it's because they look after their own - something they've had to learn after hundreds of years worth of persecution.
    At school I was told by teachers not to hang a round with 'their sort' and I've been told I'm not welcome in certain pubs because I've friends from the site. As kids when I was with them, cars would drive by, and words like 'Pikey', 'Gypo', 'Diddy Koy' and 'Scum' would come from the passengers.

    Now I understand that they can cause problems, I even used to get up to no good with them.

    But really why should they show any respect for the community that surrounds them, when they get no repect from that community. There is still a big problem with racism regarding gyspies, because it seems many people still consider it justified.
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Tbh I've only ever had trouble off a traveller once. I live (at home) ina town where there's a camp and they go out on the piss a lot. Boy can they drink... But I've never seen them start a fight, they just sing a bit and sway and are completely placid when taknked up (I mean the guys who I knew at home, not in general).

    When my brother was being bullied in school he walked out and started to walk six miles home. A gang of 'gypsy boys' started following him, but they were just curious as to where he was going and when he told them, they gave him the bus fare to get home.

    Travellers aren't any worse tha any group of people really, it's just that they're different and people target that. Crime is everywhere... But I'm sure the crime rate would rise just as much if a bunch of council flats were built in the area (in relation to Kermit's post). Travellers need to be tough because people hate them... If you're marginalised then you need to be able to look out for yourself.

    Maybe they don't have very good self-esteem either, I mean they're living in a society which is very centred around the idea that prospeirity is how much money you have, materialism. Just an idea..

    Of course, I am talking from the perspective of somebody who isn't a traveller about my experiences with Irish travellers.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    I'm sure they did, but they were wrong. They were categorically proven to be wrong.

    I don't think all travellers are scum, but my experience is that every time a traveller group set up camp near my house the crime rate goes through the roof, and when they leave the campsite becomes a cesspit of sewage, used needles and other filth. I don't live near an official site, and don't know where the nearest one is, so it may just be those who set up illegal camps who are pond filth with no respect for life nor property. And nobody in Cumbria is daft enough to leave a horse unattended in a field during the Appleby Horse Fair because someone will come and nick it.

    I'm not just talking about Romanies, for the record. It's usually the "new age" travellers who are the worst- as you say, they don't have any cultural background, they're just wasters.
    :yes: i'll be surprised if the horses in the field opposite don't get pinched. The first group we had, had several young horses tied up to lamposts. And other pulled a fence down so they could move into the field and when they're toilet broke...well you can imagine. And they always have brand new foreign plated cars. Except my nearest site is less than a mile up the road.
    But that's just my experience.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I only know one gypsy personally, she's Romany and a very nice person, although, she lives in a house and works in a shop and so not really a part of the travelling community.

    Other than that, where I work, when travellers set up camp nearby the amount of shoplifted stock skyrockets. Every time. And whichever local field they illegally invade becomes a dumping ground littered with sewage and rubbish. Tbh have never not noticed an awful mess after they move on.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    It's usually the "new age" travellers who are the worst- as you say, they don't have any cultural background, they're just wasters.


    I've known quite a few "new age" travellers in my time. While there is an anti-social element (the "brew crew"), the majority are tidy, respectful of the environment, always clean up after themselves and are generally sound people...they're also the ones that you don't notice. To tar a group of people with the same brush because the minority of ones you have come across haven't been pleasant is the very definition of bigotry. Shame on you kermit.

    Oh and to say they have no cultural background? Well yes, its a sub-culture with only 35ish years of history, but I have met people who were born and grew up on the road, so it is their culture. Also to say they are wasters is more prejudiced rubbish. I know one traveller who has her stuff published in The Independent for example. I know plenty of others involved in community arts projects or community recycling projects.

    So basically kermy, you can fuck right off with your ignorant ill informed shite. :mad:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    when travellers set up camp nearby the amount of shoplifted stock skyrockets.


    Your evidence for this being...?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well I'm a tad worried of giving my two cents in case I get labelled a racist or have my words unnecessarily changed, but hey. It's all fun and games.

    When I lived in Wolves, there was a gypsy (travellers, whatever. We called them gypsies) site down the road. I think they actually owned that land, because it's been there since I was born. It's also on the border of one of the worst areas in Wolverhampton, but that's an observation not a correlation.

    I was always very scared when walking past the gypsy sites. My brother and I have been verbally abused. My brother has been threatened with a knife, been mugged and had his bike stolen by scruffy teenagers with thick Irish accents at the entrance of this gypsy site.

    The pub just down the road has traded hands many, many times because of the amount of trouble from men who drink too much and cause fights and were known to be from this gypsy site.

    And I worked in a shop where gypsies would enter and I was informed to keep an eye, because they were known shoplifters.

    My one reasonable experience of gypsies were when my brother and I were playing pool in the bowling alley just down the road from aforementioned gypsy site and were approached by two boys, who declared they lived at the site. Whilst a little forward and somewhat unaccustomed to good manners, they didn't seem too awful and played a game of pool with us.

    Call me racist if you want but I'm pretty sure racism is an unfounded and unprovoked hatred towards a race purely down to their race. If a group of gypsies had planted themselves on the pavement across the road, I would not want them there due to prior personal experience of gypsies, stories from family and friends, and impressions of gypsies passed on by the media. Maybe they're not all bad. Great. Let's all go running through the fields, holding hands and commenting upon the wonderful weather.

    They are breaking the law by blocking the path. It's called obstruction of the highway, and I was nearly arrested for handing out flyers because of this law. Call the police, but I wouldn't personally cause a fuss with them. Keep a video diary and whatnot proving that they're obstructing the path, so there's evidence.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The point is that its perfectly OK to say that you have had bad experiences from people belonging to group x. What is not OK is to then extrapolate that to saying that all people from group x are like that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't mind them. Got a bit annoyed when they set up next to a local environmental conservation spot though, because I know they do leave a mess sometimes :/ (at least in my experience - but in their defence with the lovely local 'kids' it's not uncommon to see 400 or so of them throwing rocks / chanting at the 'gypos'. If that was happening to me I wouldn't be too worried about cleaning up). But as usual, the local candidates for the council jumped on it with flyers through the door, saying do we want to live in a rubbish tip etc.
  • SkiveSkive Posts: 15,282 Skive's The Limit
    They get treated like shit mate.
    The word Pikey's proabably as offensive to a Romany gypsy as the word n.gger is to a black man, yet many people still think it's perfectly acceptable to use it.
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think it'd be fair to say that no one here is calling all critics racist - I think they are addressing your comments - the blanket stereotyping, assumption of guilt, automatic accusations of criminal behaviour - all implies a pretty shocking attitude, and one that certainly means the claims of racism seem to be justified - at least in the way you are expressing yourself.

    The reality is, you are using exactly the same kind of justification and arguement that has been used to attack many other minorities - and in our eyes it is racist.

    For someone who can be so quick to attack other's comments it seems pretty strange for you to now be pretending you aren't making blanket statements based on race and culture.

    I'd suggest you spend sometime trying to make your opinions clearier on race, take a breather from this thread, or face actions under our rules that don't permit racism.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Of course there are anti-social elements. There are in any group of people.

    Its your blanket statements that they are all wasters, that all travellers are this or that that makes my blood boil. You wouldn't say it about any other group, yet its OK to say it about travellers.

    Disgusting. :mad:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    The people referred to in the OP are scum, if what the OP says is true, and I won't back down from that.


    Blocking a path makes people scum does it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • SkiveSkive Posts: 15,282 Skive's The Limit
    Kermit wrote: »
    It's a bit chicken and egg, though, isn't it.

    Gypsies have been persecuted throughout history because of their RACE, not because they can cause a bit of mess.
    Kermit wrote: »
    The people referred to in the OP are scum, if what the OP says is true, and I won't back down from that.

    Because they've found a place to live? Where would you have them go?
    Everywhere they go they're treated as a problem.

    You say the answer is to have the abillity to move them on quicker, but really what sort of answer is that?
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    Generally causing a nuisance in an area does, yep.

    We're not going to agree, you're determined to play the race card, goodbye

    You're the one "playing the race card", sunshine. :mad:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Gypsies and Irish Travellers are recognised ethnic groups for the purposes of the Race Relations Act (1976), identified as having a shared culture, language and beliefs

    * Roma are recorded in Greece and Turkey around 1000AD and in Scotland in 1505.
    * 'Gypsy' is thought to be a derivative of Egyptian, which is what the settled population believed the Roma to be.
    * Irish Travellers have been known as a distinct group since 400AD.
    * Case law established Gypsies as a recognised ethnic group in 1988 (CRE v Dutton) and Irish Travellers in England and Wales in August 2000 (O'Leary v Allied Domecq).

    http://www.cre.gov.uk/gdpract/g_and_t_facts.html
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I have always based most of my opinions on those that I have met or have spoken to in some way. Now, the gypsy groups that set up in our area have caused trouble for as long as I can remember but it's always been the same 9 or 10 groups that come here. Obviously this is not the entire gypsy population and for me to make the same opinion on all gypsies from these few groups is wrong.
    But those I have known come to this area have always caused us trouble. They set up on football pitches, rugby pitches etc. and have left them in right states. If others have had better experiences with them I'd like to hear about it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Theres a camp here thats legal, full of old dears. Think they're like proper old school gypsies. The illegal ones that have been near here, they caused loads of damage and left the places in a right state that cos thousands of pounds to sort out. I've also been chased by two gypsies with a knife, and got all sorts of nasty stuff off them.

    But then again i used to hang around with a group of them and they were fine to me. I think people need to learn about them, i do cos i tend to write them off sometimes when i shouldn't.
  • SkiveSkive Posts: 15,282 Skive's The Limit
    LacyMay wrote: »
    Theres a camp here thats legal, full of old dears. Think they're like proper old school gypsies. The illegal ones that have been near here, they caused loads of damage and left the places in a right state that cos thousands of pounds to sort out. I've also been chased by two gypsies with a knife, and got all sorts of nasty stuff off them.

    But then again i used to hang around with a group of them and they were fine to me. I think people need to learn about them, i do cos i tend to write them off sometimes when i shouldn't.

    I've had similar experiences. The lads off the fixed local site I consider to be good frinds of mine - people I could trust with my life.
    they're close community and quite private, simply because they realise most people woudl consider them scum on first impression. It can't be nice when you've grown up in world where most people automatically consider you scum, simply because of the social group you were born into.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think it's quite bad that i always assume they're nicking something when i see them, or think they're gonna kill me. I don't stereotype anyone else, not on really. If they didn't intimidate me so much i'd probably be more friendly with them.
  • SkiveSkive Posts: 15,282 Skive's The Limit
    LacyMay wrote: »
    I think it's quite bad that i always assume they're nicking something when i see them, or think they're gonna kill me. I don't stereotype anyone else, not on really. If they didn't intimidate me so much i'd probably be more friendly with them.

    I can understand why people find them intimidating. That's ofetn the way they want to come across. They very private people and very protective of their own - and they've got very good reasons for behaving like that.

    Even those on fixed sites liek we have up the road have had to put up with racial abuse since they were kids. I remember teachers at school telling me they're a 'bad sort' to hang around with, which is quite disgusting really.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote: »
    Even those on fixed sites liek we have up the road have had to put up with racial abuse since they were kids. I remember teachers at school telling me they're a 'bad sort' to hang around with, which is quite disgusting really.

    I don't remember any ever being in any of my schools (if they were they kept it quiet!), but i remember a year or two ago there was two or three that started in the primary school and there was a big fuss about letting "people like that" mix with the local children. Thought that was quite sad cos theys only little. Most little ones i've seen have been well behaved, and they need to learn like everyone else. I think they told them they couldn't go to the school in the end or something.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think a fair summary would be that no one has a problem with law abiding members of any travelling community.

    The problems lies when any travellers take over an area designated for something else and don't clear up when they leave.

    The racism problem comes in because not a lot of people realise that there are different types of travellers and that gypsies refers to a race not a lifestyle.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think a fair summary would be that no one has a problem with law abiding members of any travelling community.

    Kermit does, he thinks they're all scum.
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