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Half of Scots back independance

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
http://news.uk.msn.com/Scottish_independence_and_the_end_of_the_UK.aspx

Personally I can't think of anything that could damage Scotland more than independance. Just think of the costs involved for a start. An independant Scotland would need its own armed forces, Civil service, embassies abroad. Businesses with premises in England and Scotland would face extra bureaucracy and costs. And then there would be effects on families like mine, with relatives on both sides of the border. I'm scared :nervous:

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It'd be a disaster for Scotland and England, to say nothing of Northern Ireland and Wales.

    That said I think that if there was a referendum and people began to see what a split would entail (in extra taxes, for example) I suspect that the Union will survive.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I know an independant Scotland would be able to raise capital for itself via its gas and oil reserves but this will not be an endless supply. As far more percent per capita is paid per Scot than the English, I wonder how long Scotland might take to regret going for independance?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's the Scots "mistake" to make I guess.

    The Union can only survive if there is English devolution to the same scale as the Scottish Parliament and strengthened Welsh and NI Assemblies. Whether that be regional (the only way I see it working) or a single parliament.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    John Major was right about devolution. The Scottish Parliament has incited English and Scottish nationalism.

    The present situation where Scottish MPs in Westminster can vote on matters devolved to the Scottish Parliament - consequently matters that have no impact on their constituents is democratically inexcusable. And the prospect of somebody representing a Scottish constituency becoming Prime Minister leads to them acquiring massive powers which will not affect their constituents. If a Scottish MP wants to become Prime Minister; whether it's Gordon Brown, Menzies Campbell or John Reid they should be completely accountable to their constituents. For as long as the Scottish Parliament exists that cannot be the case, it would severely weaken our status as a parliamentary democracy.

    Scots would have to be pretty thick to think independence would make them better off but if they want out I certainly wouldn't beg them to stay. And if they want to stay they shouldn't get special treatment at the expense of England.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The present situation where Scottish MPs in Westminster can vote on matters devolved to the Scottish Parliament - consequently matters that have no impact on their constituents is democratically inexcusable. And the prospect of somebody representing a Scottish constituency becoming Prime Minister leads to them acquiring massive powers which will not affect their constituents. If a Scottish MP wants to become Prime Minister; whether it's Gordon Brown, Menzies Campbell or John Reid they should be accountable to their constituents. For as long as the Scottish Parliament exists that cannot be the case.

    They are still accountable for non-devolved matters, pretty important ones too like Defence, Foreign Policy, Immigration, Social Security.........

    English devolution would be an effective solution.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Braineater wrote:
    They are still accountable for non-devolved matters, pretty important ones too like Defence, Foreign Policy, Immigration, Social Security.........

    And that still leaves health, crime, environment and lots of other big things.
    Braineater wrote:
    English devolution would be a an effective solution.

    Or how about Scotland and Wales are given their independence? England would be better off and since the Scots and Welsh seem to hate the English I'm all for just leaving them to it. English devolution seems pointless; a new English Parliament would make Westminster redundant and create an additional and unnecessary layer of bureaucracy. Devolution was never needed in the first place.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And that still leaves health, crime, environment and lots of other big things.
    English devolution seems pointless; a new English Parliament would make Westminster redundant and create an additional and unnecessary layer of bureaucracy. Devolution was never needed in the first place.

    But then the English would have contol over the English policy of health, crime, environment and lots of other big things. It seems reasonably logical, nay essential that England has devolution.

    The so-called "subsidy" (Welsh and Scots don't pay taxes remember :rolleyes: , the actual subsidy is miniscule compared to the national debt) was used by a usually unelected (especially if there was a Tory government) almost Governor-General, devolution simply made the powers of the Welsh and Scottish offices representitive. I'd say there was a definite need for it.

    It also amuses me how many times the London Assembly, which has powers similar to those ofthe Welsh Assembly is almost always left out of the devolution debate........
    Or how about Scotland and Wales are given their independence? England would be better off and since the Scots and Welsh seem to hate the English I'm all for just leaving them to it.

    Hey it's our mistake to make for sure. For the moment though, we'll just gang up on merrie olde England. :D

    The budget was already going to the Welsh and Scottish offices anyway, you just don't like not being able to tell us what to do with it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Let them go, and then watch and laugh as they lose the funding. Hee Hee.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Braineater wrote:
    But then the English would have contol over the English policy of health, crime, environment and lots of other big things. It seems reasonably logical, nay essential that England has devolution.

    Well why can't the British have control over all these issues in a single Parliament in Westminster? If the English, Scots and Welsh all want control of these different issues we might as well give up on the whole British thing and allow England, Scotland and Wales to go their separate ways.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I always thought that devolution would be a waste of money. For the large amount of money spent on not just the building in Edinburgh, but the salaries of the MSPs and civil servants that work there, we see very little return.
    Unfortunately, many Scots get misty-eyed and think of William Wallace when devolution or independance is mentioned. The reality is that the Hollyrood parliament is an expensive folly.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    http://news.uk.msn.com/Scottish_independence_and_the_end_of_the_UK.aspx

    Personally I can't think of anything that could damage Scotland more than independance. Just think of the costs involved for a start. An independant Scotland would need its own armed forces, Civil service, embassies abroad. Businesses with premises in England and Scotland would face extra bureaucracy and costs. And then there would be effects on families like mine, with relatives on both sides of the border. I'm scared :nervous:


    in the poll, they wasn't asked the varying levels of independence/autonomy, so thus it is asking "do you want a change from the status quo"
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fuck the British empire.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The Scots are secretly scared of going alone but they wont admit it.

    They will say Yes we'd like an independant scotland, but when it comes down to their vote in the ballet box they wont go through with it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote:
    Fuck the British empire.
    Given the choice between living in a powerful, rich state like the UK (as it stands) or a backwater (as the individual British states will be if the UK breaks apart) I would prefer to keep the "British Empire" as it is, thank you.
    Its a great pity that Britain will never have the power that it did during the days of the Empire. Unfortunately, now the USA is the greatest power in the world. :banghead:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Unfortunately, now the USA is the greatest power in the world. :banghead:

    Not for long though. America is closer than people think to ultimate meltdown.

    I want to be Irish, 4th highest GDP per capita in the world. Take that thank you very much.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote:
    Not for long though. America is closer than people think to ultimate meltdown.

    :lol: The deluded fantasies of America's foes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The deluded fantasies of America's foes.

    I'm not a foe of America. It's a reality, America can't sustain itself as the world hegemon, it's economy is fragile and fuck and it's spending money like a siph in Iraq and other Middle East and world escapades.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote:
    I'm not a foe of America. It's a reality, America can't sustain itself as the world hegemon, it's economy is fragile and fuck and it's spending money like a siph in Iraq and other Middle East and world escapades.

    People have craved and predicted America's downfall since the American Civil War, during which Britain quietly hoped and foresaw a future comprised of a North America split into multiple nations like South America. People said what you're saying now during the Great Depression, Vietnam and the Carter years...

    I do not doubt that US influence will one day decline but I remain sceptical that it's right around the corner since history shows that such predictions rarely come true.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is gonna sound really retarded and unintelligent but...

    I think they just say that. I think the people who are going for independance haven't thought it through.

    So many Scottish folks just like to think that they can get on with things without having to deal with the English, so the idea seems attractive.
    I don't think it's anything to do with being independant...just being separate from England.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A lot of people in Wales want independence too. This is worrying because without England's help Wales would collapse... Somebody actually once told me that it's a third world country or something...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    According to the economist, 55% of Scotland's GDP comes from southern English tax revenue. There are only 170k net taxpayers in Scotland. Out of 6 million. Let them have independence if they want their "90 billion quid in 5 years" from oil (their reciepts from England total up 50bln a year). If they want independence England and Wales will be far better off.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote:
    Not for long though. America is closer than people think to ultimate meltdown.

    I want to be Irish, 4th highest GDP per capita in the world. Take that thank you very much.

    Being in the EU as far as I'm aware you're well within your rights to just buy a house in Ireland and live there, and pay irish taxes instead of british ones :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    minimi38 wrote:
    According to the economist, 55% of Scotland's GDP comes from southern English tax revenue. There are only 170k net taxpayers in Scotland. Out of 6 million. Let them have independence if they want their "90 billion quid in 5 years" from oil (their reciepts from England total up 50bln a year). If they want independence England and Wales will be far better off.

    England and Wales will be worse off.

    The way the UK works is that all four regions (in theory) work together, providing mutual benefits for each. This is the same principle behind the EU. I find it works effectively, having one national health service treating the whole of the UK.

    If Scotland leaves then England, Wales and N. Ireland lose out, as well as Scotland. It's up to them though.

    I think we should invade France and sack Paris, that's what I did for my money troubles :) (on a computer game :()
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    4th highest GDP per capita indeed. All because they have one of the most educated work forces in Europe, while having the sense the sense to cut corporate and income taxes and deregulate business operation.

    Europe could learn a few things from them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    England and Wales will be worse off.

    The way the UK works is that all four regions (in theory) work together, providing mutual benefits for each. This is the same principle behind the EU. I find it works effectively, having one national health service treating the whole of the UK.


    You just illustrated my point.

    England generates all of its wealth while the governmetn spends a shit load in Scotland. There is no benefit to Englandin the arrangement.

    The EU benefits all member states because of its common market. The core EU area that generates net wealth is the south of England, northern France, western Germany and the Benelux countries. Alot of other regions in France, UK and Germany are net recipients of wealth.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Being in the EU as far as I'm aware you're well within your rights to just buy a house in Ireland and live there, and pay irish taxes instead of british ones :)

    Indeed, plus our economy is much safer than Britain's. The ECB controls the interest rates of those countries who have signed up to the euro. A larger economy is a safer one i.e. more productivity and all that shite, the Euro is the strongest currency in the world at the moment, if only you'se brits took this into account! :p
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