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Critic of Putin "poisoned" at a sushi bar

2

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The joys of unfettered capitalism eh dis?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    The joys of unfettered capitalism eh dis?

    Since things were so rosy under Communism.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Is anyone arguing any different?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Bullseye wrote:
    He will be just like Yeltsin and Garbechev and he will change the law to suit himself, he will not step down in 2008, he will continue to rule until he sees fit to step down or die...which ever comes first. He may go so far as to create a new position that is a head of the Presidency to do so, who knows, but just because he wont step down has nothing to do with whether he is successful or not.

    The superficial changes and the different personel makes no difference to whether the KGB is still the KGB, technically it could be called the Cheka, im pretty sure thats what it was when Lenin promised to do away with it as it was the Tsar's secret police force...of course he didnt, he renamed it and set it out to do his bidding like all good dictators.


    actually it's reckoned he'll put in a weak leader for the enxt 4 years then run again as a fresh preisdent
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well you seemed to be blaming some of Russia's present problems on 'unfettered capitalism' which seems slightly odd when the same problems existed under communism - and indeed, communism is actually to blame for some of those problems. If Russia had continued to progress along democratic (and capitalist) lines I think the gap between Russia and the West would be much smaller.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You<
    >the point
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ah, "Ras-Putin!" A ruthless, unscrupulous nationalist? How "unusual" in contemporary "democratic" world culture.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    actually it's reckoned he'll put in a weak leader for the enxt 4 years then run again as a fresh preisdent

    Not allowed by the Constitution but hey ho.
    Unless your skin is the 'wrong' colour.

    And you really believe anything the BBC says? I honestly thought you were smarter than that. Is there any reason why, at any given time, on the BBC website there are at least 5 anti-Russia stories? Have you ever been to Russia and seen these 'racist problems' at first hand? Thought not.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    don't you think an experienced inteligence agency would be a bit more discrete in how they assasinate people?
    do you realy believe putins boys are dumb enough to be so obvious?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You can be as obvious as you like when you know you will get away with it no matter what. Why make it look accidental when there is no point to it except to waste time.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And you really believe anything the BBC says? I honestly thought you were smarter than that. Is there any reason why, at any given time, on the BBC website there are at least 5 anti-Russia stories? Have you ever been to Russia and seen these 'racist problems' at first hand? Thought not.

    The BBC were covering a report by Amnesty International. I do accept that the BBC is not entirely impartial, I'm not entirely familiar with this 'anti-Russia' stance although I have noticed that on other issues their journalists can display a pretty clear agenda.

    I haven't been to Russia but I hope to visit fairly soon in my gap year...thinking of doing the Mongol Rally with some mates.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    don't you think an experienced inteligence agency would be a bit more discrete in how they assasinate people?
    do you realy believe putins boys are dumb enough to be so obvious?

    Very good point. Just like the murder of Pope John Paul I which apparently was a KGB job.
    I do accept that the BBC is not entirely impartial, I'm not entirely familiar with this 'anti-Russia' stance although I have noticed that on other issues their journalists can display a pretty clear agenda.

    The BBC's anti-Russia stance sometimes verges on horrific. There is never anything positive that is ever reported about that country. It's disgusting but done so cleverly that most people believe it more than the old American Cold War propaganda.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Very good point. Just like the murder of Pope John Paul I which apparently was a KGB job.

    :confused:

    Surely you mean the shooting of Joh Paul II - the assassination is put down to the mafia and is supposed to be related to the Banking system...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just like the murder of Pope John Paul I which apparently was a KGB job.

    Wasn't that the Mafia? They did the Pope, they did the Banker...the did EVERYONE...Damn the Godfather and them Corleone's!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :confused:

    Surely you mean the shooting of Joh Paul II - the assassination is put down to the mafia and is supposed to be related to the Banking system...

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4767652.stm

    Investigation blamed the KGB, but who knows?

    As for the latest killing ofLitvinenko, again who knows? The Telegraph has 8 different possibilities

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/27/nspy127.xml
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :confused:

    Surely you mean the shooting of Joh Paul II - the assassination is put down to the mafia and is supposed to be related to the Banking system...

    Yup sorry my bad. Watched a program on the history of the KGB with Roger Moore. Though one of the last people who saw John Paul I alive was a Russian metropolitan (orthodox equivalent of a cardinal) who was poisoned a few hours before old JPI snuffed it.


    Personally I think the BBC ordered the Ukrainian's hit in order to drum up more anti-Russia support. Only the BBC could pull off such an ingenious plan and get away with it. Like people have said, if it was old Vlad, I doubt it would have been so public.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yup sorry my bad. Watched a program on the history of the KGB with Roger Moore. Though one of the last people who saw John Paul I alive was a Russian metropolitan (orthodox equivalent of a cardinal) who was poisoned a few hours before old JPI snuffed it.

    The Godfather II story is based on what is alledged to have happened to JPI, the book Red Rabbit by Tom Clancy is based around JPII...

    Personally I think the BBC ordered the Ukrainian's hit in order to drum up more anti-Russia support.

    Indeed, one organisation has a reputation for assassinating dissidents, the other for being left wing in it's politics. Clearly I have them the wrong way around...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well take the KGB and the BBC for example.

    One is a secretive and subversive organisation, involved with the dissemination of enemy propaganda and the other is the former Soviet Secret Police.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the other is the former Soviet Secret Police.

    ..involved in the dissemination of state propaganda, rather than enemy ;)

    .. Oh and one uses elctrodes as torture - the other Strictly Come Dancing...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ..involved in the dissemination of state propaganda, rather than enemy ;)

    .. Oh and one uses elctrodes as torture - the other Strictly Come Dancing...

    I think as far as the BBC are concerned, the State is the enemy. Though the State's power pales in comparison to the Beeb's...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I love the way how anyone who sees the more unpleasant actions of their favourite country exposed loves to shoot the messenger instead of admitting to the country's wrongdoings. :D

    I'd say the BBC is doing something very right indeed, when it gets accused of anti-American and anti-Russian bias, anti-Palestinian and anti-Israeli bias.

    Closest to unbiased journalism you're ever going to find in this world methinks.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What the fuck? You think the BBC killed him to drum up anti-Russian support? I'm really sorry Thunderstruck, but are you taking the piss? Because if you are then this kind of intelligence insulting doesn't help the debate move forward.

    Sorry, just to check again, you think the BBC has assassins? I mean... what? Everyone in the office who's worked for the BBC is looking pretty confused right now - they do have shit tea, but no one's ever heard of the secret assassin squad they keep hidden in Crinkly Bottom.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    don't you think an experienced inteligence agency would be a bit more discrete in how they assasinate people?
    do you realy believe putins boys are dumb enough to be so obvious?

    Unless of course the whole point is to be obvious, a journalist shot down outside her flat gets the odd few inches of type, but this gets you a lot more and the message is sent out loud and clear.

    But, having said that - the 'example' arguement also points the finger at suicide or one of his mates killing him to try and ruin Putin.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote:
    What the fuck? You think the BBC killed him to drum up anti-Russian support? I'm really sorry Thunderstruck, but are you taking the piss? Because if you are then this kind of intelligence insulting doesn't help the debate move forward.

    Sorry, just to check again, you think the BBC has assassins? I mean... what? Everyone in the office who's worked for the BBC is looking pretty confused right now - they do have shit tea, but no one's ever heard of the secret assassin squad they keep hidden in Crinkly Bottom.

    Yes Jim. That's really what I think :yeees:

    Though it does fit in with their very clear anti-Russian agenda...

    That and I know for a fact that they have and still maintain their nuclear bomb shelter
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Though it does fit in with their very clear anti-Russian agenda...

    That may be, but you dont need to spin the recent Russian law about extra-judicial killings outside of Russia to make it look bad do you.

    An 'extremist' and therefore a legitimate target under the law is someone who is guilty of "slandering the individual occupying the post of president of the Russian Federation".
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote:
    An 'extremist' and therefore a legitimate target under the law is someone who is guilty of "slandering the individual occupying the post of president of the Russian Federation".


    Well in that case most of the Western media are legitimate targets. For the last time, it wasn't Putin or Moscow. They had nothing to gain from the guy's death and it was not worth the risk if it came back that the Kremlin had any involvement. Which is precisely why I think it was Putin's enemies who did it for the exact reason that everyone (including the former spy himself) would immediately jump to the conclusion that it was Moscow behind it. It's a brilliantly devised plan.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why do you find so difficult to believe the Russian government or intelligence service was behind the killing Thunderstruck? It's not as if they didn't have anything to protect.

    - If it is true, as many claim, that it was Moscow itself that planted the bombs on those apartment blocks in order to justify an attack in Chechnya, Putin and co. would go to any lengths to keep that quiet. As the murdered journalist Anna Politkovskaya could tell you from the grave.

    - Alexander Litvinenko was investigating her death and he was allegedly supplied with a list of Russian officers responsible for it on the day he was poisoned.

    - He was a harsh critic of Putin and he said on his book Putin is a kiddie-fiddler and claims many in the (former) KGB are aware of it.

    - polonium-210 is an indescribably rare and difficult to obtain substance. It is unimaginable that it was supplied by anyone other than a government agency. No terrorist or mafioso could get their hands in any of it in a million years.

    Frankly I can't believe you are seriously suggesting it was anyone other than Moscow who had him killed.

    Putin is a dodgy corrupt fucker and no mistake.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well in that case most of the Western media are legitimate targets. For the last time, it wasn't Putin or Moscow. They had nothing to gain from the guy's death and it was not worth the risk if it came back that the Kremlin had any involvement. Which is precisely why I think it was Putin's enemies who did it for the exact reason that everyone (including the former spy himself) would immediately jump to the conclusion that it was Moscow behind it. It's a brilliantly devised plan.

    Nothing to gain other than silencing a critic and showing the whole world nicely what they do to critics (knowing full well even if it did come out there is very little the World could do about it).

    I havent the faintest idea who did it, and I dont believe you do either - to dismiss the idea that Putin was responsible out of hand seems to show an obvious bias on your side.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    - polonium-210 is an indescribably rare and difficult to obtain substance. It is unimaginable that it was supplied by anyone other than a government agency. No terrorist or mafioso could get their hands in any of it in a million years.

    The line between mafioso, oligark, goverment official and the FSB is sometimes quite thin in Russia.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Why do you find so difficult to believe the Russian government or intelligence service was behind the killing Thunderstruck? It's not as if they didn't have anything to protect.

    Because most of the evidence points towards the fact that Moscow had nothing to do with it.
    Aladdin wrote:
    - If it is true, as many claim, that it was Moscow itself that planted the bombs on those apartment blocks in order to justify an attack in Chechnya, Putin and co. would go to any lengths to keep that quiet. As the murdered journalist Anna Politkovskaya could tell you from the grave.

    People don't normally talk once they're dead so using that as an argument is pretty retarded.
    Aladdin wrote:
    - He was a harsh critic of Putin and he said on his book Putin is a kiddie-fiddler and claims many in the (former) KGB are aware of it.

    Some people will do anything to get a book published won't they? Putin is a kiddie fiddler? He's married with two children and the very fact that it's unsubstantiated means that it can't really be used in an argument.
    Aladdin wrote:
    - polonium-210 is an indescribably rare and difficult to obtain substance. It is unimaginable that it was supplied by anyone other than a government agency. No terrorist or mafioso could get their hands in any of it in a million years.

    Wrong. According to the Telegraph article cited earlier
    There has long been a black-market trade in radioactive materials being stolen from poorly – protected Russian nuclear sites. The International Atomic Energy Agency estimates about 40kg of weapons-usable uranium and plutonium were stolen from facilities in the former Soviet Union between 1991 and 2002.

    Granted they couldn't have waltzed down to Lidl and bought some but I rekon that if I had motive, with my semi-ok grasp of Russian, I could probably get my hands on some too. So that puts paid to that.
    Aladdin wrote:
    Putin is a dodgy corrupt fucker and no mistake.

    A lot less dodgy and corrupt that the Western leaders and Putin looks like a positive saint next to Bush, but hey ho, since he's RUSSIAN (boo hiss! communism, human rights boo!), used to work for the KGB (boo hiss! evil!) he must be bad...
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