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"Make young people earn their rights"

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
The Guardian
BBC
Torygraph

I'm sorry? Is the idea of having rights not that you don't need to earn them?! It doesn't sound like he has any clear idea of what he wants, but anything "on a national service model" sounds dodgy to me.

I'll try to find some more info. What does everyone else think?

Edited to add extra sources

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It depends on what the idea actually is, really.

    If you can learn to drive two years younger, say, because you do lots of voluntary work and show that you are responsible, then that's a good thing. Equally, delaying the right to drive to ASBO kids is something I could be persuaded to support. But if the removal of rights such as voting become involved then its wrong.

    He's right, its an interesting debate. Never happen though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I see his point about clearing up all the discepancies on age, but the Age Trust seems a pointless waste of time and money to me.

    Never been a big fan of National Service it strikes of compulsion and the idea of being owned by the State. Now there's a few exceptions (conscription in WW1 and WW2), but generally you should only be forced to join something in time of dire emergency.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    Never been a big fan of National Service it strikes of compulsion and the idea of being owned by the State.

    That's what worries me- that the idea is that you can only have rights if you tick the boxes. That is wrong, but if doing a bit of voluntary work gets you extra benefits then I'd support that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    He didn't have to earn his though did he?

    Seriously, because we're young doesn't mean we're all yobs and rebels. However, i do think that repeating young offenders should do national service. Worked on bad lads army...some of them actually end up joining the army. But i don't think we should have to 'earn' our rights.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ballerina wrote:
    He didn't have to earn his though did he?

    Seriously, because we're young doesn't mean we're all yobs and rebels. However, i do think that repeating young offenders should do national service. Worked on bad lads army...some of them actually end up joining the army. But i don't think we should have to 'earn' our rights.

    Er, thanks - go to jail or join the army - its hardly a positive message to people that the army is made up of people who should be in jail.

    Now if you say the army should give offenders second chances (for minor and non-sexual crimes anyway) I'd agree - I knew some bloody good soldiers who'd been a bit wild, but it's not there as an alternative to prison.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    Er, thanks - go to jail or join the army - its hardly a positive message to people that the army is made up of people who should be in jail.

    Now if you say the army should give offenders second chances (for minor and non-sexual crimes anyway) I'd agree - I knew some bloody good soldiers who'd been a bit wild, but it's not there as an alternative to prison.
    i didn't mean like serious offenders like rapists/murderers - i meant stuff like petty crime etc, bit like bad lads army. It actually turned alot of them around. Not saying it'll work for all of them though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ballerina wrote:
    i didn't mean like serious offenders like rapists/murderers - i meant stuff like petty crime etc, bit like bad lads army. It actually turned alot of them around. Not saying it'll work for all of them though.

    all it does it makes them vent their agresion at people worthy of dying, oh yes, iraqi civilians
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    all it does it makes them vent their agresion at people worthy of dying, oh yes, iraqi civilians
    :confused: they just do what they have to, it's not anger management. And anyway, they don't HAVE to join the army, the ones who do, choose to.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ballerina wrote:
    Seriously, because we're young doesn't mean we're all yobs and rebels. However, i do think that repeating young offenders should do national service. Worked on bad lads army...some of them actually end up joining the army. But i don't think we should have to 'earn' our rights.

    Very good idea. I heartily concur. Teach the fuckers some discipline and respect.

    Cameron is going the right way about snatching election defeat from the jaws of victory. He's now backtracking and twisting and turning so much over his youth policies that he's having to come up with more and more outlandish statements to cover the holes in the last one. Idiot.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    all it does it makes them vent their agresion at people worthy of dying, oh yes, iraqi civilians

    Don't talk bollocks - that's possibly the most ill-informed comment I've seen all year. There's arguments for not using the army as an alternative to prison (and to be fair some for), but the idea that a bunch of car-thieves are going to suddenly starting torturing Iraqi civilians for fun is the type of rubbish even the Scum or the Guardian wouldn't suggest.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    Don't talk bollocks - that's possibly the most ill-informed comment I've seen all year. There's arguments for not using the army as an alternative to prison (and to be fair some for), but the idea that a bunch of car-thieves are going to suddenly starting torturing Iraqi civilians for fun is the type of rubbish even the Scum or the Guardian wouldn't suggest.


    i know i thought id do a reactionary comment :p

    theres plenty of arguments for and against, but compulsion for the sake of being seen to do something reeks of hypocricy by the adults who never had to do it
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ballerina wrote:
    i didn't mean like serious offenders like rapists/murderers - i meant stuff like petty crime etc, bit like bad lads army. It actually turned alot of them around. Not saying it'll work for all of them though.

    Don't get me wrong I think the army could do more with young kids who are starting down the wrong path, especially those with ASBOs for minor crimes or are already in juvenile detention. But that's about getting them back on the track after they served their punishment rather than as an alternative. And I have no problems with ex-offenders (at least for minor crimes joining the army), its the compulsion I don't like.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That said there's a wider point and to an extent Cameron is right. More 16-18 year olds do voluntary work than have ASBOs. if he wants to do something perhaps he ought to put more funding into Duke of Edinburghs, or the Scouts, or the Woodland folk
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What a load of shit. Demonising of the youth again probably to appeal to the middle aged and the old. Next week he'll be saying "Pensioners need to earn their rights"
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What if the young person has Aspergers, or a disability, learning difficulties, or a mental illness... Will this hinder them in to having less rights?

    What about a first generation young immigrant settling in the country who is only just learning English?

    I've seen a lot of rowdy young people, but adults being just as bad (I've worked a lot of bars)...

    This is sick.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To be very fair, I was at the speech and Cameron was talking about providing extra rights, or rights earlier based on young people showing they were responsible. He really wasn't saying people shouldn't get their rights, just that some people could deserve them earlier. Now you can argue on that point but the Guardian did a fucking nice stitch up on what was talked about,

    Btw, the whole event was for a chairty aiming to create an alternative style national service through community work for those that wanted it.

    Fucking hell, the day you defend a tory, eh?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote:
    To be very fair, I was at the speech and Cameron was talking about providing extra rights, or rights earlier based on young people showing they were responsible. He really wasn't saying people shouldn't get their rights, just that some people could deserve them earlier. Now you can agrue on that point but the Guardian did a fucking nice stitch up on what was talked about,

    Btw, the whole event was for a chairty aiming to prevent create an alternative style national service through community work for those that wanted it.

    Newspapers putting spin on story shock :shocking: the amount of stories I've seen which may be factually accurate, but put such a spin on it that its bears no resemblance to the truth is quite terrifying.
    Fucking hell, the day you defend a tory, eh

    I'm always doing it :razz:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote:
    the Guardian did a fucking nice stitch up on what was talked about
    I did wonder, on the grounds that they didn't quote the speech, which is why I was going to find more sources. I forgot. :blush:

    It's an interesting idea, and something that came up in StrubbleS university thread is that "National Service" in Austria can take the form of working for the public sector - which in some ways could be incredibly beneficial (although God knows I wouldn't trust most of my 18 y/o friends as paramedics :nervous:)

    I think this idea of getting rights (or, possibly he is really referring to reponsibilities, like driving) a little earlier is a difficult one - surely the whole point was that the current system of mixed-up age limits is creating confusion so to suddenly say that this 17 y/o and this 16 y/o but not that 18 y/o can drive is crazy.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote:
    Cameron was talking about providing extra rights, or rights earlier based on young people showing they were responsible.

    The Guardian lying? Gosh, that never happens.

    I think that is a good idea, tbh- you get back what you put in. You help out in society and society will help you out; giving early driving licences for those who are proactive in their communities can only be a good thing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Here's the Young Adult Trust brochure for those that are curious as to what was being launched at the speech
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