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If someone collapses

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
I think we would all do well perhaps to take a few minutes (stick it iTunes, on your MP3 player, on a cd for the car, whatever) to look at these MP3 podcasts from St John Ambulance. They provide some helpful advice for what to do if someone collapses.

Links:

http://www.sja.org.uk/firstaid/info/

This link can provide you with MP3 downloads which will take you through basic first aid, with someone who is trained and licensed.

also, DO NOT practice chest compressions on a live human being, you could seriously injure them.
scarey monster

If someone collapses through drug or alcohol use (or any other unknown reason) you should put them in the recovery position and dial 999.

For those that don't know what the recovery positions is, lie them on their side with a knee pulled forward to keep them there and lift the chin slightly to get a good airway, it should look like if the were standing up they were looking towards the ceiling.

This is a good and helpful summary to be going on with in the meantime, but please take the time to look at these links.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Interesting stuff mate...

    I think its very useful to know, thanks!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    good info, cheers fella :thumb:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I dont mean to be harsh martin, but I dont think the recovery position is a very good thing to be teaching people if they have been using drugs, alcohol yes, but not drugs.

    All manor of other things could be going on which would need doctors help in the body of someone who has used MDMA or other drugs. I've seen it happen.

    If someone collapses and they are defitintely out of it then I think the only course of action should be 999.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I dont mean to be harsh martin, but I dont think the recovery position is a very good thing to be teaching people if they have been using drugs, alcohol yes, but not drugs.

    Sorry bud but I think you are wrong on this one, if you read the guidelines you will see that it is only if a casualty is unconscious and breathing, until the ambulance gets there. There is absolutely nothing wrong with them, under those circumstances it does not matter whether its drugs or alcohool or anything else, all you are doing is keeping the airway clear, supporting life.
    After checking for danger see if you can get any response from them (seeing as they could just be asleep or something equally stupid - I'm assuming we're working on the theory of finding someone slumped rather than having them keel over in front of you), then send for help

    yes this correct but if they arent breathing they have three minutes before you'll need an undertaker not a Dr. You need to keep oxygen going round there body until medical help arrives, and no-where did I indicate that this is a substitute for medical assistance.

    There is no distinction between substances, you treat what you see leave the rest to clinical staff.
    C is CPR, if they aren't breathing normally go straight into CPR, there's no need for the rescue breaths anymore (on an adult at least), get straight into the chest compressions which is at a rate of 30 to 2

    The acronym differs depending who has trained you but the principal is the same, and no, the rate 15 breaths to 2 compressions. If you are arguing about the rescue breaths at the outset there is still arguement for this because initial rescue breaths before compressions may dislodge a blockage you cannot see from the windpipe.

    Not being funny but can we please not confuse people, if there's something you think is seriously wrong or dangerous then PM me and I gladly change it.
    After checking for danger see if you can get any response from them (seeing as they could just be asleep or something equally stupid - I'm assuming we're working on the theory of finding someone slumped rather than having them keel over in front of you), then send for help

    this however was a good point, i typed this up in word and missed a block of text (shhould have read more carefully) so thanks for pointing that out, you might not have to do anything if you can get a response.
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    JadedJaded Posts: 2,682 Boards Guru
    Martin, I appreciate your motivation for posting this, but I am a bit uneasy having this information on the boards when it doesn't come from a qualified medical practitioner - do you have a link you could post that verifies this? Sorry mate, just being careful...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How about the one to St Johns Ambulance that he's already put in the post. I am fairly sure you'll find that it all agrees pretty well with the info on that site!

    Do read closely now! Saves you from looking daft.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    inital rescue breaths are no longer required, you do 30 compressions then 2 breaths, this is the new guidelines for everyone and will be implemnted to all areas of first aid, medical practice by the end of the year, also chest positioning is now the center of the chest there is no longer a requirment to find the V.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    LadyJade wrote:
    Martin, I appreciate your motivation for posting this, but I am a bit uneasy having this information on the boards when it doesn't come from a qualified medical practitioner

    Especially when it comes from someone wih the custom title of 'Minister of Disinformation'. :lol:

    You'd never intentionally give us erroneous information on dealing with unconcious victims, would you Martin? ;)
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    JadedJaded Posts: 2,682 Boards Guru
    How about the one to St Johns Ambulance that he's already put in the post. I am fairly sure you'll find that it all agrees pretty well with the info on that site!

    Do read closely now! Saves you from looking daft.

    I asked for verification because some replies indicated that the information wasn't entirely up to date, or wasn't specifically aimed for drug related incidents. I wasn't saying he was wrong, but there is no reason not to challenge information, it gives th OP the chance to prove they are right.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its a good effective summary, and will do the trick nicely should it ever be required.

    Acronyms are what you make of them, and C for circulation will be of more use to the people needing this than C for CPR.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Right, to avoid confusion (and no rachie i didnt say you MEANT to confuse, I said that PM'ing me would probably the best way so that I could have ammended the message and people might not get confused.

    Scarey Monster; Thank you for you PM, your revisions were great and would have been entirely helpful (as were some of Rachie's).

    Unfortunately looking at the post for various reasons I think that this post will do more harm than good in terms of confusing people. Therefore, I encourage everyone to go to the St John's Link to get some MP3's for your iPod or whatever.

    They are very good.

    LJ; yes understandably you want this verified, but if you listened to the MP3's everything would be verified almost verbatum.

    In conclusion the pricipals of what I posted were all fine, there was nothing dangerous and everything in there has proven to be effective. Where the confusion arose was that there have recently been updates to the Resus guidelines which I haven't had chance to read yet. As I have said before I am a first aider not a trainer.
    I asked for verification because some replies indicated that the information wasn't entirely up to date, or wasn't specifically aimed for drug related incidents.

    The point is this; most of us aren't clinical practicioners and as such the physiological treatment of the effects of many drugs are something that, as you rightly point out, should be left to professionals. However, life support is about keeping the basic fundamentals to sustain human life going until such help arrives, and this need transcends the conditions of injury.
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    JadedJaded Posts: 2,682 Boards Guru
    I suppose what I was getting at was that Rachie and Budda had both made poinst that raised questions about the accuracy of the info you had posted, so I was throwing it back to all of you to verify yourselves!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    LadyJade wrote:
    I suppose what I was getting at was that Rachie and Budda had both made poinst that raised questions about the accuracy of the info you had posted, so I was throwing it back to all of you to verify yourselves!

    Would have been clearer if didn't start Martin!

    The audio stuff is really good though, listen to it, you never know you could save a life, and it could be someone you love, or don't even know.

    I feel strongly on this, I know that there is nothing more terriying that having someone collapse, and also know that anything you do along the lines of the above will help, it's not the fine details that matter in the long run.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Shove a yoke up der holes.
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    JadedJaded Posts: 2,682 Boards Guru
    Yerascrote wrote:
    Shove a yoke up der holes.
    Wasted again this weekend were we?
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    JadedJaded Posts: 2,682 Boards Guru
    I feel strongly on this, I know that there is nothing more terriying that having someone collapse, and also know that anything you do along the lines of the above will help, it's not the fine details that matter in the long run.

    It must be very frightening, and I think everyone should have basic first aid training at least. St John's Ambulance do very good basic courses if you want to be sure about what you are doing.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    LadyJade wrote:
    It must be very frightening, and I think everyone should have basic first aid training at least. St John's Ambulance do very good basic courses if you want to be sure about what you are doing.

    There are actually other suppliers which teach the same course for about half the money, St Johns and the Red Cross are a bit of a rip off.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Martin; Sorry I wasnt very clear, what I meant was that although the recovery position is all very well, and for those who have drunk too much its pretty much all thats needed when it comes to drug use its more complicated.

    Yes, if they are still breathing etc. do the recovery position, but you MUST also phone 999 because any number of really nasty things could also have happened from blood clots to internal bleeding.
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    JadedJaded Posts: 2,682 Boards Guru
    budda wrote:
    There are actually other suppliers which teach the same course for about half the money, St Johns and the Red Cross are a bit of a rip off.
    Any clues as to who else offers their expertise? Always nice to have some comparisons.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    they are expensive because they offer the best training.

    there are cowboys out there.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    St Johns and Red Cross basic courses I have seen really weren't that expensive at all, it tends to be the ones that lead to official qualifications that are because of all the paperwork involved.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Shove a yoke up der holes.

    In most cases you would never give a casualty anything to eat. That includes eggs.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    LadyJade wrote:
    Any clues as to who else offers their expertise? Always nice to have some comparisons.

    If you are doing the basic courses, appointed persons or the first aid at work, which are the two normal ones then there are loads of companies which can offer the set course for less money. It pays to shop around.
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    KimonoKimono Posts: 201 Trailblazer
    Just to rewind a bit here, I must say that the advice I've always heard about what to do if someone collapses - and you think it may have been as a result of drug-taking - is to put the person in the recovery position and dial 999. I've not heard anything to suggest that putting a person in the recovery position in such an instance 'isn't a very good thing' (as Budda said).

    In the true manner of sound advice-giving of these boards, it would be great if anyone could provide evidence to back up why the recovery position shouldn't be used on someone who's collapsed after taking drugs.

    Meanwhile, here's TheSite's own Drugs first aid guide.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I know my first post wasnt clear, but I have explained what I meant and I certainly didnt want to give the impression, which I appear to have done, that the recovery position is somehow wrong.

    What I meant, and I thought I had made clear in my second post was that its not good enough by itself if the person has used drugs (and probably if they have just used alcohol just to be on the safe side).

    If someone collaspses from over drink then the likelyhood is they will pass out and as long as in the recovery position be fine. Providing of course they havent drunk way too much at which point they are at risk of OD.

    However, with drugs (mostly the harder sort, I dont mean cannabis in this) there are a myriad of other things which could go wrong. Just putting them in the recovery position and hoping they will 'sleep it off' is dangerous, they could have any number of nasty things wrong with them with require urgent care.

    And while I fully accept that recreational drug use is relatively safe (if done with respect to the chemicals used) I've seen someone who collasped and should have died (A&E staff didnt know why not) so I know personally that it does happen.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Good Good, a nice summary then.

    If someone collapses through drug or alcohol use (or any other unknown reason) you should put them in the recovery position and dial 999.

    For those that don't know what the recovery positions is, lie them on their side with a knee pulled forward to keep them there and lift the chin slightly to get a good airway, it should look like if the were standing up they were looking towards the ceiling.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ok then, so we have a nice summary to use. I'm going to stick this at the top of the post as originally intended. Can we now please agree that this is, within reason, a safe and effective way of treating people until medics arrive?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ok then, so we have a nice summary to use. I'm going to stick this at the top of the post as originally intended. Can we now please agree that this is, within reason, a safe and effective way of treating people until medics arrive?

    It bugs me to do so, but yes, I agree.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why does it bug you? I'm intrigued as to what else you can think of?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why does it bug you? I'm intrigued as to what else you can think of?

    I dont really like agreeing with Martin, its too simple (or is it him that is simple?) and it somehow doesnt feel like.
This discussion has been closed.