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a week to destroy hezbollah!

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Have a look at this excellent article from one well placed in the midst of the conflict zone itself and then you decide for yourself, bb.

    http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article_id=73998

    Hezbollah didnt author the script according to which this entire conlict has progressed for more than 80 years, I'm afraid. Time to recognise the true Naziistic war criminals in this equation, namely the ones with the blue and white flag.

    So they are justified then?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No apartheid state has any legitimate rightful claim nor is there is a statue of limitations on wholesale ethnic cleansing as demonstrated by our continued demands for the capture and extradition of Milosevic's key generals (or more appropriately, Israel's generations-long hunt for fugitive Nazis).

    All that is required is for the Western powers to get some spine and an ounce of consistent application of principle and end all support for the Zionist extremist adventure their predecessors wrongfully colluded with in the first place, subject Israel to universal embargo, no fly zones and forcible removal of its racist leaders, repatriation of countless foreign settlers back to the countries of their legitimate origin and the right of return to a combined, truly pluralistic democratic state for Palestinians, Israelis born there and other miroity groups native to the land. International recognition for the human rights of those oppressed and brutalised by the Zionist hierarchy and military machine and steps to ensure their full and equal integration into a single viable non-particularist state would end this conflict overnight.

    Its what Palestinians have long aspired to in actuality behind all the lies and propaganda fed the West by Israel and the collusionist mass media.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Self defense against the originator of an armed invasion (in this case Israel and its terrorist founders and successive leaders) is de facto justified, yes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    First of all to force Israel out of existence and place a Palestiniant government in power to control the region, including the native born Israelis even though their parents would have had to be deported back to their nations of origin is insane, even if it had the complee support of the rest of the world. The sheer amount of military force and ground troops to carry out such a thing would leave millions dead on all sides and leave the land desolate and destroyed, as the Israelis would never willingly bow to a Palestinian government with supreme power over them and for that matter if i was an Israeli i wouldnt accept it either.

    Your overnight sollution is insane.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And Palestinians will never bow, and rightfully so, to the Israeli agenda of total domination, ethnic cleansing and further land confiscation.

    To suggest they should is the true insanity.

    [edited to add: I would remind you that Iraq had a far greater military than Israel which was reduced to rubble through protracted universal embargo. Without the steady flow of US tax payer billions and special arms provisions, the war machine would similarly become an untenable and ineffectual dinosaur].

    Additionally, you put words in my mouth through presumptuous reading of my previous post, subject. "Out of existence" is a typically Dis comment to make, since the overturning of control by a particular ideological faction over a nation does not equate to "out of existence". Did South Africa "cease to exist" when Apartheid and its adherents were ousted? Did Germany "cease to exist" when the Nazis were vaquished and driven from any further possibility of power in the country? No on both counts. No less so the land which labels itself "Israel".

    Neither did I suggest "a Palestinian" government, but one which is pluralistic and democratic in accordance with the true aspirations of the majority of inhabitants of the land. With proper and genuinely humanitarian international oversight the two communities could live together as peacably as they did prior to the incursions of the Zionist demagogues and terrorists behind this long scripted conflict.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Self defense against the originator of an armed invasion (in this case Israel and its terrorist founders and successive leaders) is de facto justified, yes.

    So if the killing of civilians can be justified by the Hezbollah, why cant it be justified by Israel?

    Are they a different type of civilian?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    theres a whole threaD ABOUT THIS ALREADY.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Let's not forget that Israel has been targetting civilians for years.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    why is the US on Israels side?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Let's not forget that Israel has been targetting civilians for years.

    As come to that have the Palestinians.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    why is the US on Israels side?

    Because a large chunk of the voters believe the Christian account of Israel as the promised land.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    As come to that have the Palestinians.
    However Israel's excesses and killings are far, far worse.

    There is only one side here oppressing the other. There is only one side subjecting the other to "living" conditions that would make most concentration camps look like a five-star resort. There is only one side with power over the other.

    Yes, the killing of innocent civilians in Israel is as abhorrent as those in Lebanon and Palestine. But it is wrong to say "both sides are as bad as each other" or that they are as much to blame for the conflict.

    No. One side must have the immense majority of blame. And the same side is the one that must stop its murderous campaign, and in the longer term the continuing oppression and illegal occupation of an entire nation. Which is what has caused all the grief in the first place.

    The ball is, as it always has been, in Israel's court.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bongbudda wrote:
    Because a large chunk of the voters believe the Christian account of Israel as the promised land.
    Do you really think that's true?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There is only one side subjecting the other to "living" conditions that would make most concentration camps look like a five-star resort.

    I suggest you might want to look more closely at that or define what you mean by concentration camp. Hyperbole does you no credit.
  • SkiveSkive Posts: 15,282 Skive's The Limit
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Do you really think that's true?

    There has always been some very powerful and influentual Jews in the US. I suspect that has something to do with it.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jews maybe, but I don't really get why the Christian voting block would support it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Do you really think that's true?
    Actually is well known. The hard Christian Right in America (and I'm not talking everyone, but proper fundies) believe through some sort of prophecy bollocks that the second coming of Christ will only happen when the Israelites own the entire area build their third temple.

    The legend says when that happens Christ will come to Earth again- and convert those unbelievers to Christianity incidentally.

    That's the funniest part of all. The hard Christian Right is helping the Israelis with the ultimate purpose of having them all converted to Chrisitianity when the Messiah pops in for a visit again. The Israelis know this but nonetheless are more than happy to accept all the help and support that comes their way from the American fundies.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Actually is well known. The hard Christian Right in America (and I'm not talking everyone, but proper fundies) believe through some sort of prophecy bollocks that the second coming of Christ will only happen when the Israelites own the entire area build their third temple.

    The legend says when that happens Christ will come to Earth again- and convert those unbelievers to Christianity incidentally.

    That's the funniest part of all. The hard Christian Right is helping the Israelis with the ultimate purpose of having them all converted to Chrisitianity when the Messiah pops in for a visit again. The Israelis know this but nonetheless are more than happy to accept all the help and support that comes their way from the American fundies.
    Oh, that's weird.

    I didn't know that, thanks
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Actually is well known. The hard Christian Right in America (and I'm not talking everyone, but proper fundies) believe through some sort of prophecy bollocks that the second coming of Christ will only happen when the Israelites own the entire area build their third temple.

    The legend says when that happens Christ will come to Earth again- and convert those unbelievers to Christianity incidentally.

    That's the funniest part of all. The hard Christian Right is helping the Israelis with the ultimate purpose of having them all converted to Chrisitianity when the Messiah pops in for a visit again. The Israelis know this but nonetheless are more than happy to accept all the help and support that comes their way from the American fundies.

    It actually has little to do with the hard right, or the fundamentalist christians, a large chunk of ordinary christians there are more literal in their reading of the bible than ones here. So the issue of Israel is one they feel wont be resolved and that Israel needs to defend itself.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bongbudda wrote:
    Because a large chunk of the voters believe the Christian account of Israel as the promised land.

    I know that i'm probably about 3 pages to late on this but its also because there are a lot of very rich jewish people in the states - I think new york has the highest concentration of jew's outside of israel - and where there is money and business interests you always know that the american government will jump to attention. Also the US oddly see's Israel as a stabling force in the region someone who looks at things through the same veiw point as them.

    lastly i think a lot of it has to do with guilt - both the US and many european countries feel a collective guilt still from the Holocaust - you have to remember that israel at its conception was seen as a safe haven for jews somewhere they could goven themselves and ergo somewhere where they would not face persecution.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Wyetry wrote:
    I know that i'm probably about 3 pages to late on this but its also because there are a lot of very rich jewish people in the states.

    Definitely, the Jewish Lobby is small, but because it is well organised and well funded it punches above it weight.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bb, do you offer any legitimacy of "right" to the murderer who kills one of your family members or the thief who enters your home to do as he pleases?

    I doubt you would. Such is the principle at work from the very start as Zionists connived with Western powers of the day to instigate fullscale military assault on formerly peacefully coexistent communities to drive out what is repeatedly documented in the words of numerous Zionist movement leaders and moutpieces as non-persons (to put it mildly). This has been the central principle underpinning every policy and brutal, ethnocidal act by Israel from well before the official recognised state came to be to the present day.

    Neither Hezbollah nor Hamas nor the PLO existed or had need to exist until the Israeli ethnic cleansing brigades insitutionalised their overtly repressive agenda in hopes of driving the remaing rightful indigenous inhabitants from the land.

    I suggest you go and read that article I provided and if you care enough to learn the truth behind the mentality of Israel and its leaders, go and read the substantive analyses I previously provided here.

    The Palestinians are those resisting tyranny and as such should have the support of all who truly value freedom, human rights and true democratic principles. Sadly there is more mental complacency and dissonance on this matter than willingness to examine the truth of Israel's prolonged ideological agenda of neo-colonialist conquest being the cause of the conflict.

    The Nazis and Apartheidists could only dream of such extended moral deference to their similar causes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bongbudda wrote:
    It actually has little to do with the hard right, or the fundamentalist christians, a large chunk of ordinary christians there are more literal in their reading of the bible than ones here. So the issue of Israel is one they feel wont be resolved and that Israel needs to defend itself.
    Mmm... I would call anyone who believes Christ will only come to earth again when the Israelites occupy the Holy Land in full and build the Third Temple as fundamentalist Christians.

    Of course there are millions in America who support Israel for different reasons. But there is a vocal social minority (who sadly has friends in high places) who fully support the hard right in Israel and even their calls to permanently annex the totality of the West Bank and Gaza because of said prophecy.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the american fundamentalists actualy believe america to be the promised land not israel.
    when europeans arrived in 'the new world' ...it was literaly overflowing with everything imaginable.
    food was swimming walking and flying past so thicjk and fast it blew their minds.
    superb arable land ...endless miles of well watered regions. endless suplies of timber and just about everything else imaginable.
    all as promised in the bible.
    one of the reasons the fundies there want to stop abortion gay relationships etc is cos ...they have more or less ruined and polluted the land and see a need to stop the ruination and pollution of the people.
    in the bible the jews lost favour with god and the gentiles were invited in.

    america sticks up for israel for economic and strategic reasons ...not religous ones.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Mmm... I would call anyone who believes Christ will only come to earth again when the Israelites occupy the Holy Land in full and build the Third Temple as fundamentalist Christians.


    And I'd call them dillusional, I have NO idea where they'd get that from.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally Posted by Aladdin
    Mmm... I would call anyone who believes Christ will only come to earth again when the Israelites occupy the Holy Land in full and build the Third Temple as fundamentalist Christians.

    whee on earth have you heard this?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'll try to find a link. I saw it a while ago on U75 and there were one or two links.

    It might be not true as reported but I'm not making it up.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Apocalytpic Christian Zionism is very real and prevalent in mainstream Evangelical circles. It hearken back to the teachings of Scofield in the 1800's who's literalist readings of End times events formed the basis for his doctrine of "Dispensationalism". One of the central foci of this teaching was that Christ could not return to earth until certain conditions were met, including the "return of Jews to control of Israel".

    This teaching was raised in prominence and popularity amongst evangelicals in the US in 1948 with the establishment of the modern state, however flawed and ignorant of the actual machinations behind the rhetoric the perceptions were (and remain) of those events.

    Hal Lindsey repopularised this apocolyptic political belief in his book "Countdown to Armaggedon" back in the 1980's.

    This movement is both widespread and politically virulent to the extent that its adherents in Congress comprise some of the most anti-environmental nutcases you could imagine. With a mindset that holds there is no future for the planet they have little qualm supporting whatever destructive policies - both militaristic as well as environmentally abusive - they can. Hal Lindsey is also tied in with the most militant and hardline Zionist elements in Israel only too happy for his extremist following in the US.

    With approx 20 million US fundies adhering to this school of thought, it is a powerful and dangerous threat which should not be dismissed offhand.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru

    america sticks up for israel for economic and strategic reasons ...not religous ones.

    I agree with this.
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