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The immigration debate

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5119892.stm

This ex minister is absolutely spot on.

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And by happy coincidence British birth rates are at an all-time low and a really worrying crisis lies in the years ahead due to the lack of new babies being born.

    Luckily immigration provides both immediate and future workforce to keep the country running.

    Problem solved. Off to the pub.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If there was no immigration allowed a lot of the football players people worship wouldnt be allowed into the country...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Frank Field is one of the most intelligent MPs we have and he does not really have anything to gain politically through not toeing the government line on immigration so I think his concerns will probably be taken seriously by a lot of people. And he quite clearly is not making some opportunistic stand for political gain. That said I do hope his concerns are not hijacked by little Englander anti-immigration feeling, there are rational and reasonable concerns that are only undermined by the likes of the BNP and to a lesser extent UKIP. (Although I have to say I’d have thought the BNP would be delighted at lots of white Polish people coming here since the far right are always going on about whites becoming a minority or whatever). Either way the BNP have prospered since Labour got into power and the few areas where the BNP have been making inroads have been traditional Labour areas, there are unfortunately some traditional Labour supporters who cannot be simply demonised as Nazis that for a number of reasons are turning to fascism.

    From the article UKIP comment:
    The government is gambling on the fact because the latest wave of immigration is the same race, that people will not actually notice

    Tbh I don’t think the government is that patronising. Anyway recent Polish immigrants for instance who settle here permanently and have children and bring them up here will effectively lose any immigrant connotations in a generation. Next generation Poles will simply be seen as British, if the children go to school here they won’t be seen as any different to any other British children. That’s pretty much affirmed by the many people in Britain and the States with Polish ancestry but not really any distinct Polish-British or Polish-American identity. It’s an unfortunate and uncomfortable fact but the risk of tensions among ‘immigrant’ groups in society does not imo come from Poles, there is no minority among Poles here that insist on forced marriages, ‘honour killings’ or fatwa’s against authors or cartoonists. Unfortunately the minority of other communities that do insist on such incompatibilities with our civilised society tarnish the majority.

    It does make sense however to have restrictions on immigration and there is nothing racist or xenophobic about that. As Frank Field says unlimited legal immigration through the EU or unchecked illegal immigration might not be sustainable and while we do need skilled immigrants there is no reason why they cannot be found through a legal visa guest worker programme (with subsequent opportunities for permanent residence, etc) as opposed to a potentially dangerous open-door policy.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5119892.stm

    This ex minister is absolutely spot on.

    No, he isn't.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Does he mean unsustainable politically or economically?

    edit: by the former i mean whether how long before people get fed up with it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Very rarely do I ever see anything sensible said concerning the immigration issue.

    This article continues that trend.......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You could break the trend and say something then...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    this country would not have such a high in take of migrants if there weren't jobs available, these people are happy to do the lower paid jobs in our country when british people are too proud to do, especially in the london catering industry and building industries, either long hours or very labour intensive work, if many immigrants arrived and found no work they would go back because benefits wouldn't be enough for them to send anything back.
    economically the UK needs immigrants, but it should be properly regulated so numbers are correct.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Dis's new avatar made me laugh.

    Erm, we need immigration, or our Economy will be fucked and there will be such an imbalance between old/young people as that we couldn't support all the old folk who are retired...

    We already see this problem with the retirment age being raised.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    You could break the trend and say something then...

    Touche

    Reading the article in full it is actually difficult to see what point he is making.

    He seems to be saying that the BNP are actually right and that people just haven't noticed yet.

    But again the 'problem' with immigration is attributed it seems to some vague bollocks about 'social cohesion' and 'British values' all of which is manifestly stupid (this guy is meant to be clever?!)

    What these arguments always semm to miss is that Britian has had immigration on a considerable scale for years so saying 'xxx bad thing will happen if we don't control immigration' is always bollocks because it already would have happened years ago.

    is British culture, social cohesion etc etc now 'worse' than it was 50 years ago and is this because of immigration since then? If you can prove that then he may have a point but this is obviously wrong.

    What the government ought to be doing instead of pandering to stupidiy, racism and xenophobia is to make the positive case for immigration and try and change some of the entrenched attitudes of the British public.......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ^^ What Toadborg said.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A huge number of Eastern Europeans have moved into my neck of the woods and I think its great, they have been a real boost to the area in culture, community and economically.

    Plus polish beer and sausage are fantastic!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Anyways, as more and more British builders move to Spain (and I've personally heard of two or three who have done just that) it's good that we have Polish replacements in place.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Aladdin wrote:
    Anyways, as more and more British builders move to Spain (and I've personally heard of two or three who have done just that) it's good that we have Polish replacements in place.

    True.

    I have even found the immigrant builders and workers seem to actually do more work and work longer hours! Often I see British ones sitting about doing naff all.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Anyways, as more and more British builders move to Spain (and I've personally heard of two or three who have done just that) it's good that we have Polish replacements in place.

    Indeed. Although it should not be unchecked. My friend's dad runs a building firm and said how a lot of other building firms employ some Poles who don't even speak English, it's quite obviously dangerous to work on a building site if you don't speak English.

    I've came across waiters in London from Eastern Europe that don't speak English, some of the people stacking shelves at night in the local Tesco barely speak any English - there is nothing racist about having controlled immigration where preference is given to people working in areas that we need and to people who speak English. It's a somewhat debatable claim but I know too of builders moving to Spain - and their explanation for doing so is that the influx of cheap labour from Eastern Europe has meant labour costs have got lower, hurting British builders and that they can't make a decent living with other building firms that charge lower costs through relying on Poles who they pay less. So these builders moving to Spain from what I know move to Spain where living costs are lower and then come back to Britain for a few months at a time to work. Although tbh I think part of that is sour grapes in that Polish builders are doing an equivalent, if not better job for less pay...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah, I reckon is a combination of finding hardworking competition from Polish chaps and the temptation to start a life in the sun charging higher-than-average prices to the expats living there.

    Hell, I am tempted to do it myself, even though I'm not a builder. ;)
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Indeed. Although it should not be unchecked. My friend's dad runs a building firm and said how a lot of other building firms employ some Poles who don't even speak English, it's quite obviously dangerous to work on a building site if you don't speak English.

    Yes but these days the people running the show know Polish and English. He gets the instructions from boss and tells the poles what to do in Polish. Harmeless enough.
    Although tbh I think part of that is sour grapes in that Polish builders are doing an equivalent, if not better job for less pay...

    Yup. And anyone who supports the capitalist system has to accept this - thats how it works. The guy who does a good job for the lowest pay gets the deal. Thats how the Free Hand of the Economy works. It's our own method coming back to bite us... thing is... half these people support their family at home on the wages, send half back home, live over here on the other half - and that little bit can support their whole family back home!

    It's shocking to think the cost of living in Britain is that much!

    Btw, I counter you av with a Stalin!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    Btw, I counter you av with a Stalin!
    I was just thinking if Dis' avatar and mine came into contact you'd have enough sparks to set fire to the computer :D
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :lol: I borrowed it from a fantastic organisation, the Atlantic Bridge...The two greatest Prime Ministers Britain has had and two great US Presidents. :D
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    there is nothing racist about having controlled immigration where preference is given to people working in areas that we need and to people who speak English. ...

    And who is to decide that exactly? I assume you mean the govt?

    As someone who supposedly supports free-markets in most cases and realises that the state is often an inappropriate and unnecessary presence in many human affairs what is your justification for imposing soviet-style market controls on the international labour market?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    And who is to decide that exactly? I assume you mean the govt?

    As someone who supposedly supports free-markets in most cases and realises that the state is often an inappropriate and unnecessary presence in many human affairs what is your justification for imposing soviet-style market controls on the international labour market?

    So you think any control whatsoever on immigration is an unwanted 'soviet-style market control on the international labour market'?

    This thread is about immigration so I'm not going to talk about my views on other matters. I'm not anti-immigration.

    I don't buy into spurious claims of unskilled illegal immigrants being of enormous benefit or of unlimited legal immigration from Eastern Europe being somehow necessary for the country. There is absolutely no reason why skills shortages cannot be filled through specific visa programmes. And the idea that Britain needs immigrants to pay for pensions is a bit of a flawed argument.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No but I think the kind of controls that are normally advocated, and the ones you have just suggested are.

    Your refusal to talk about other issues is just a way to avoid your hypocrisy but don't worry as it would seem every other supposed beleiver in free markets wants tight controls on the international labour markets and i have never seen a good reason given which leaves them open to suspicion with regards to their motives.

    If I replaced labour with anyother good that is purchased on a market and suggested the kind of controls that you suggest than you would be against it on grounds of freedom, and on liberal economic principles.

    So tell me why is the labour market different?
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