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Over flowing with illegal immigrants

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock apparently believes that there is no such thing as society and we are all "just individuals". I'd like to see how long he survives relying solely on himself :D

    I do very well for myself providing other individuals needs and wants. Which they voluntarily pay me for. They win, I win. Of course someone who lives off stolen money wouldn't understand that and hence the bullshit rationalisations you come out with.
    Not everyone will shirk their social responsibilities, but plenty will (or give the absolute minimum, or think that those with higher incomes should pay more etc, etc). The end shot would be that a lot less money would come into dealing with social problems than would under tax.

    Not a problem, most social problems are caused by the state anyway.
    However few people will shirk their work responsibility for the simple reason, that do it long enough and at best you'll find yourself on the same shitty salary you were on when you were twenty one and at worst find yourself being sacked.

    Really? What stops you from sacking your boss and sharing out the profits amongst yourselves? Hey! that would be the government! What keeps nice high barriers to entry going to protect the big corporations?

    What makes you use only one type of money?
    If I shirked my work responsibilities (part of which is setting up systems to allow 'socially important' things to be deliveredd at less cost and more efficiently. I would get the sack - therefore its in my best interests to do my job efficiently. same for millions of others on the public pay role...

    You do your job according to the whims of people who have stolen large sums of money. How many free drinks do you have compared to ones you buy yourself?

    You serve no customers whatsoever. You are not replacable overnight. You get paid anyway, even if there is a decision to sack you, and your job would just get filled by someone else. The fact that what you are doing no one would voluntarily pay for is never addressed.

    If your that essential you would have nothing to fear from a voluntary system and if you are not then you shouldn't be doing what you are doing anyway.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not a problem, most social problems are caused by the state anyway.

    Hows that?
    A society is consisted of individuals. If there are problems, it's the individuals that make the society that cause it.
    The State is just the "OTHER".
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A society is consisted of individuals. If there are problems, it's the individuals that make the society that cause it.

    Yes. Unfortunately there are some individuals that believe in this nonsense called "the state" they are irrational and like the early christians or other fundamentalists in their devotion to nonsense.

    They think there is a link between each member, which is ineffable - it cannot be seen, heard, touched or otherwise sensed. they are quite, quite mad.

    They use violence on other cult members or those not in the cult to try and make a paradise on earth in much the same way as other religious groups have throughout history.

    This is "the state".
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Yes. Unfortunately there are some individuals that believe in this nonsense called "the state" they are irrational and like the early christians or other fundamentalists in their devotion to nonsense.

    They think there is a link between each member, which is ineffable - it cannot be seen, heard, touched or otherwise sensed. they are quite, quite mad.

    They use violence on other cult members or those not in the cult to try and make a paradise on earth in much the same way as other religious groups have throughout history.

    This is "the state".

    There is a link between each member. We all share the same air, the same planet, the same polution etc....

    The confusion about the "State" is that the needs of the state are confused with the needs of individuals. And often people think the the State will mirror their needs which is not true.

    Infact the State's only purpose is to mask our needs in order to further it's own.

    The old Greeks had it right with their democratic states...

    Demos = people
    Kratis = rule
    So a democracy is supposed to be the rule of people.
    Horse shit.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Anyone who thinks the state doesn't exist has never come up against its power.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Actually I doubt if klintock's ever left his house, apart from to go to school every morning.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Anyone who thinks the state doesn't exist has never come up against its power.

    True.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Anyone who thinks the state doesn't exist has never come up against its power.

    I have never seen a state. No one has. I have seen individual men and women get away with terrible things because of a cloak of legitimacy.

    You think that "the state" exists independant of people?

    Proof please. (moron)

    Oh and some proof of any kind for Pilots gibberish would be great.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just a thought, but how can Mr. Blagsta be so in favour of something he considers so scary?

    Some anarchist. State funded one, of course. ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You seriously are hung up on that word. Proof.
    Not everything can be proved...

    I have a gut feeling it's gonna rain in the next hour!! Can't prove it though.

    By the way, what is a cloak of legitimacy but a state?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You seriously are hung up on that word. Proof.

    Well, it lets me seperate meaningless gibberish like for instance, your posts, from stuff that's worth thinking about.

    Only real things are worth the effort.
    Not everything can be proved...

    Only things that can be proved exist. This is how you can tell what actually exists or not.
    By the way, what is a cloak of legitimacy but a state?

    *shrug*
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Well, it lets me seperate meaningless gibberish like for instance, your posts, from stuff that's worth thinking about.

    Only real things are worth the effort.

    Forgive me for saying, but you are full of shit.
    Without the "unreal" things, life wouldn't be interesting.
    But that is straying away from this thread completely.
    :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    I do very well for myself providing other individuals needs and wants. Which they voluntarily pay me for. They win, I win. Of course someone who lives off stolen money wouldn't understand that and hence the bullshit rationalisations you come out with.

    That's fine for you. I'm sure I could also go out into the private sector and fend for myself quite happily. However, I recognise that others can't - whether due to disability, short-term illness, being too young or too old, unskilled (or with outdated skills). Funnily enough, I think Government has a role in helping those people.

    Of course can you also provide street lighting for yourself or roads. And when you go off a motorbike miles from any doctor you know will you be compos mentis enough to be able to get on your mobile, ring yellow pages for a doctor and then call him. Or would it be better to have a National Health Service?

    What happens if you live in a rural area and only a few people benefit from the street lights in the middle of your village? Should they be turned off because there's not enough people to club together and pay the rent.

    Not a problem, most social problems are caused by the state anyway.

    Do you have any evidence for this? Or is this like so many of your claims presented as statment of fact with no evidence.
    Really? What stops you from sacking your boss and sharing out the profits amongst yourselves? Hey! that would be the government! What keeps nice high barriers to entry going to protect the big corporations?

    What makes you use only one type of money?

    I'm not sure I understand any of the questions? They certainly don't relate to my original comments.

    You do your job according to the whims of people who have stolen large sums of money. How many free drinks do you have compared to ones you buy yourself?

    Er, what have drinks got to do with it? I hate to agree with Blagsta, but...
    You serve no customers whatsoever. You are not replacable overnight. You get paid anyway, even if there is a decision to sack you, and your job would just get filled by someone else. The fact that what you are doing no one would voluntarily pay for is never addressed.

    Whilst it gladdens my heart that you think I'm not replaceable, in the grand scheme of things I am. And if I get sacked I don't get paid - that would kind of negate the point of working wouldn't it?

    It also depends what you mean by voluntarily pay for. I think you struggle to cope with the idea that most people are basically selfish and will voluntarily pay for very little that hasn't an immediate direct affect on them. OK they may give some money to charity, but not enough.

    If your that essential you would have nothing to fear from a voluntary system and if you are not then you shouldn't be doing what you are doing anyway.

    You are assuming people know what is essential. Fair enough, if a trifle naive. Take doctors and nurses - everyone knows they're essential and complains about the NHS managers. But its the NHS managers who make sure that the Doctors and nurses get paid, the most efficient drugs are brought at the best prices, that hospitals are sited in the correct place, that one hospital in the districts doesn't have ten nurses for every patient and another one nurse for every thousand. ie without NHS managers the public would be basically throwing lots of money at the nurses and doctors in a not very effective manner
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's fine for you. I'm sure I could also go out into the private sector and fend for myself quite happily. However, I recognise that others can't - whether due to disability, short-term illness, being too young or too old, unskilled (or with outdated skills). Funnily enough, I think Government has a role in helping those people.

    Everyone can. There are very, very few people who couldn't be doing something productive for others. Theres always work to be done.
    Of course can you also provide street lighting for yourself or roads

    Great. We agree.
    And when you go off a motorbike miles from any doctor you know will you be compos mentis enough to be able to get on your mobile, ring yellow pages for a doctor and then call him.

    Would you have even chosen to make the trip? And if you did choose to take the trip knowing it was stupid to do so, should I really be expected to fund your idiocy? After all, you could have forseen this and had medical help on standby, insurance etc etc
    Or would it be better to have a National Health Service?

    No. See above.
    What happens if you live in a rural area and only a few people benefit from the street lights in the middle of your village?

    Move, or put the prices of what you make and sell there up until you can afford lighting etc. If what you do is so essential then you won't have any problems getting the cash, if what you make doesn't matter so much then you shouldn't be there.
    Do you have any evidence for this? Or is this like so many of your claims presented as statment of fact with no evidence.

    Name a socail problem and I will show how state violence caused it. It's too big an issue to just answer like that.
    I'm not sure I understand any of the questions? They certainly don't relate to my original comments.

    They seem to to me. What are you having difficulty with?
    Er, what have drinks got to do with it? I hate to agree with Blagsta, but...

    Just a metaphor. The point being that when someone else is picking up the tab, there is a strong tendency to waste resources.
    Whilst it gladdens my heart that you think I'm not replaceable, in the grand scheme of things I am. And if I get sacked I don't get paid - that would kind of negate the point of working wouldn't it?

    Not YOU, the job you do. You get replaced, but the job you do does not finish. In a voluntary sector your job ends totally when no one wants it done. In the state sector the job exists regardless of demand. No one wants vacuum cleaners? then all the people who make them have to go do something else.
    It also depends what you mean by voluntarily pay for. I think you struggle to cope with the idea that most people are basically selfish and will voluntarily pay for very little that hasn't an immediate direct affect on them. OK they may give some money to charity, but not enough.

    I think you struggle to understand that I don't see anything wrong with that whatsoever. peopel don't want to fund drug addicts or single mums or >insert social stuff here< then fine. After all, if your case for providing those things is so strong, a few adverts and you'll be rolling in freely given cash. If it's not so strong it shouldn't happen.

    And again we have this problem of saying that "people" are alays self interested but somehow the government isn't made up of "people".
    You are assuming people know what is essential. Fair enough, if a trifle naive.

    And you are assuming people don't know what they need, which is patronising as fuck frankly. "I'll need medical help and clean drinking water? Woah! never thought of that! You'll be telling me I need shelter and warmth next!. What? oh."
    Take doctors and nurses - everyone knows they're essential and complains about the NHS managers. But its the NHS managers who make sure that the Doctors and nurses get paid, the most efficient drugs are brought at the best prices, that hospitals are sited in the correct place, that one hospital in the districts doesn't have ten nurses for every patient and another one nurse for every thousand. ie without NHS managers the public would be basically throwing lots of money at the nurses and doctors in a not very effective manner

    This is comically innocent. It isn't NHS managers who make sure there is money for doctors and nurses, it's the heavily armed thugs who work for the inland revenue.

    Forgetting that for a moment, the customer doesn't care how they get what they want, only that they get it. You can internally organise hospitals however you like, once there is direct competition a decent stable systrem would soon be thought up.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The market rate for pay as a cleaner in a London hotel would be higher if there wasn’t a large pool of cheap labour. Do you dispute that?



    Unemployment is a related issue because for many unemployed people it doesn’t make financial sense to go out and do low paid work. The market rate for low paid work has been distorted.

    Yes I do dispute that because of the effect of the minimum wage (the 'market rate' may well be below this) and due to issues of slack in the market, is there more supply than demand. Currently low unemployment would suggest not.

    Like I said there is empirical evidence suggesting that immigration is not a major cause of lower skilled wages falling, and that is all that matters......

    Controls on immigration are the distortion. The labour market regulations concerning immigration that are practised in the supposedly liberal democracies of the west would not look out of place in a Soviet dictatorship...
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