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Make sure you've got consent, lads...

SystemSystem Posts: 8,622 Staff Team
Some very serious news today from the Home Office. It's about the deeply worrying problem of rapes and drunken assaults. Let's make one thing clear. The 6% conviction rate for rape trials in this country is an absolute disgrace, a travesty of justice. And the Home Office are rightfully trying to do something about this. I criticise the Government very often in P&D, but in this case, I applaud them for having the guts to try and take this on.

A few changes are proposed. One is to change the law so that when a woman is drunk, it cannot be assumed that she consented to sex. The Home Office is also launching a new campaign; << Details >>

The Beeb tells us; "Men should make certain that a woman has consented to sex to avoid being accused of rape, a new campaign launched by the Home Office is to warn. The magazine and radio adverts and posters are aimed at reducing the number of sex assaults taking place when a woman is very drunk."

On the one hand, I think this is common sense. No man wants to be falsely accused of rape, and no woman wants to have sex with a guy whom she isn't totally comfortable with. Rape is a horrific crime that no one should ever have to go through. It can only be right that a man must seek consent before having sex with someone. The same way that a woman should make sure the man is fine with it, though the Home Office, oddly enough, omits to mention that fact...

Some have said that women need to take more responsibility, however, by not getting so drunk they haven't the faintest idea what they're doing. I see what they're saying, but if these women are completely pissed, shouldn't the man say "no, you're completely drunk, there's absolutely no way I'm sleeping with you"?

What do you make of all this?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well i think most decent blokes would be making sure they have consent first anyway, and most i know wouldnt shag someone that was totally fucked.

    Might make the blokes that think pissed girls are an easy shag think twice though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This whole "women need to take more responsibility" stuff is just bullshit, but so is the idea that consent can't be given if someone is "too drunk".

    The implication would be that a drunk women can explicitly consent to sex then change her mind the next day once she's sobered up. Consent is either given or it isn't, drunken or not.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think it's right. I think some guys go out at night specifically with the intention of pulling a girl who doesn't know what she's doing, and I think this shoud be stopped. You'll still have exactly the same problems though. How can you tell how pissed someone is and at what point can a woman no longer give consent? Plus I wouldn't like to be the guy who brings home a girl who's had a few drinks, sleeps with her, then gets accused of rape because her boyfriend found out and she doesn't want him to find out she cheated on him.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think some guys go out at night specifically with the intention of pulling a girl who doesn't know what she's doing, and I think this shoud be stopped.

    Really? I hope not, as that's a scary thought.
    Spliffie wrote:
    The implication would be that a drunk women can explicitly consent to sex then change her mind the next day once she's sobered up. Consent is either given or it isn't, drunken or not.

    I agree with this, you can't really have different levels of consent. It's either consensual sex or it isn't...whether a woman's had half a glass of wine or three bottles.

    I believe that the number of women who regret having sex with someone and then cry rape is very, very small (and rightly or wrongly, I'd always give the woman the benefit of the doubt). This probably does mean that men should be more wary of sleeping with a very drunk woman, but that is ultimately left to their own judgement, it's not as if a law can feasibly be passed where women have to be breathalised on leaving a pub or club with some random bloke.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    briggi wrote:
    Really? I hope not, as that's a scary thought.
    Maybe not as blatently as I put it, but I reckon some guys go out with the intention of pulling, and then see the absolutly hammered girl on the dance floor as an easy target.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I am ok with consent and would never condone the horrific crime of rape. I also would say that up until now rape laws in the country haven't been perfect, the exmaple of rape victims being cross examined by the accused rapist in court.

    But is it swinging the other way now though?

    I mean I reckon we could all so what equals consent and what doesn't, but what can a guy do to PROVE he he had consent? Carry round contracts that girl has to sign> Or a tape recorder?

    I mean, taking advantage is wrong, but then how many girls have gone out, gotten a bit pissed , NOT completely unaware of what they were doing, pulled a guy, shagged them then regretted it the next day??

    Its a likely scenerio. Say the girl has a bf and he finds out, so to cover she says the guy raped her, people around saw she was drinking but they couldn't judge how much she had.

    What could the guy do to prove he didn't rape her??

    Now please don't be down on my for this, I am not anti-women and I am very much on the girls side of things but as a guy and as an intelligent human being I have to ask the question.

    What can a guy do?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Avoid excess alcohol, illegal drugs, illicit sex - and people and places connected with these.

    Doubt many would do that though!
    Walkindude wrote:
    What can a guy do?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think it's right. I think some guys go out at night specifically with the intention of pulling a girl who doesn't know what she's doing, and I think this shoud be stopped. You'll still have exactly the same problems though. How can you tell how pissed someone is and at what point can a woman no longer give consent? Plus I wouldn't like to be the guy who brings home a girl who's had a few drinks, sleeps with her, then gets accused of rape because her boyfriend found out and she doesn't want him to find out she cheated on him.

    Some guys might but that doesn't mean they're guilty of rape FFS. Loose morals, quite possibly. Some women do the very same with guys you know.

    If someone - male or female - gets wrecked and shags the first person who shows interest then it's entirely their responsibility. If they regret it...don't drink so much!

    It's not as if alcohol has some magical affect on women whereby the mere suggestion of sex automatically results in their knickers flying off.

    One of the other problems with the practicability (the evident stupidity aside) of this is drug use as well. Cocaine & E are just as likely if not more so to reduce inhibition - even in moderate amounts. Does the mean every man who shags someone who's high faces potential rape charges?

    Ludicrous stuff imo.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Indeed.

    I mean lets remember there are flase claims of rape as well as rela ones, and both can be equally devestating I'd say.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    carrot12 wrote:
    Avoid excess alcohol, illegal drugs, illicit sex - and people and places connected with these.

    Doubt many would do that though!

    :lol:

    Yeah, right.

    People get drunk, take drugs and fuck. Deal with it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I read a bit back that women were found to be spiking mens drinks with drugs and even viagra to shag them, and were techincally raping them...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think is bullshit tbh.

    Like Spliffie said, people drink take drugs n fuck, its whats happening. I've had quite a few drunken fucks but I've never stopped mid pornstar LOL and asked "are you perfectly sure that you are consenting to me sticking my penis inside of you". Shags happen, its pretty obvious a girl is consenting without having to ask her. But then if this girl in the morning decides its rape, then where do you go?

    Why doesn't a lass have to fully make sure a lad is consenting before the deed?? Total bollocks imo.

    Not saying i condone rape because its sick and vile but drunken sex just happens and the lad could just as easily turn round and shout rape in the morning just like any lass but would he be taken seriously in the slightest?? I don't think so, does my head in stuff like this.

    The world wanted equal rights so make them equal, don't turn it round so women have more rights than men, rant over :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Of course! But caveat emptor, huh? ;)
    Spliffie wrote:
    :lol:
    People get drunk, take drugs and fuck. Deal with it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well, the buyer certainly shouldn't have to be aware of governments jailing people because others regret what they do after a few shandies. :yes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    Consent is either given or it isn't, drunken or not.

    People dont think properly when they are really drunk. I wouldnt sleep with a girl who was so drunk she'd go a long with anything personally.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I can understand the reasoning behind it, as rape is a horroid crime. but it think its a little sexest to say its just the male half of the human race that do this. If they as that men have to make sure the women give her consent then the same MUST apply to women getting the consent from men. That to me almost say that it ok for a women to do it to a guy but not the other way round.

    And as others have said whats to say that she gives her consent then, the next morning decides she didn't. Personally i have never had sex with someone whos in that much of a drunken state. And what are we meant to do to get this consent, a writen contract, voice recording (ok i know those are silly), but if its a her word against his :banghead:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Walkindude wrote:
    I also would say that up until now rape laws in the country haven't been perfect, the exmaple of rape victims being cross examined by the accused rapist in court.

    since when has that ever happened?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If I were a bloke i'd make sure I had a signed written agreement lol.
    But what about blokes that gets 'raped' because they were too drunk to know what they were doing. It seems that women get away with everything because men are seen as the stronger sex, which is absoloutely ridiculous.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    thing is if a man is conscious enough to know whats going on, yet doesnt stop it, then its a very messy situation
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    to scarletleeds he wasnt saying all women do it but it doesnt mean it doesnt happen. There are plenty of girls who get drunk, have sex and then cry rape the next day when they realise what they have done.

    Personally i would never have sex with someone i believed was too drunk to know any better, i dont really drink that much to be honest and aint the type for drunken one night stands anyway. The problem is that we as a nation drink too much and get so out of it we do things we later regret and until people act more sensibly then there is always going to be a problem.

    The thing is that its not only guys who do this to girls but vice versa, ive got a friend who was drunk on a bed at a party when some "heffer" basically climbed on top of him and had sex with him. Luckly he wasnt too bothered about it but nobody should ever do it in the first place.

    I really dont know how they can work this without people going to jail who dont deserve it, i dont condone the actions of anyone male or female who takes advantage of a drunk person however if someone is drunk and is all over someone then there bound to have sex. People should really think before getting so drunk they dont know what they are doing...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    its not really the case that we drink too much, we drink too much in too little a space of time
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But what about blokes that gets 'raped' because they were too drunk to know what they were doing. It seems that women get away with everything because men are seen as the stronger sex, which is absoloutely ridiculous.

    If you did even the smallest amount of reading into the subject, you'd see that cases of females raping males/other females are situationally very different. It is very, very rare to hear of a case where a woman has raped a man (or another woman) as a result of meeting them when they were paralytic in a bar.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    This whole "women need to take more responsibility" stuff is just bullshit, but so is the idea that consent can't be given if someone is "too drunk".

    The implication would be that a drunk women can explicitly consent to sex then change her mind the next day once she's sobered up. Consent is either given or it isn't, drunken or not.

    I think there's a difference between consent and informed consent though. Anoretics are often considered unable to give informed consent for treatment of their condition, and therefore can be checked into treatment by family members, because they're seen as being in an unfit state of mind to decide for themselves. I'd say being so hammered you can hardly see straight is probably an unfit state to decide if you want to sleep with someone.

    Women already do sleep with people and then cry rape the next day - this law doesn't change that, does it?

    One of the ways that doctors check to see if it's 'true' rape or not is bruising etc around the vaginal area; drunken women sleeping with someone are unlikely to have those physical clues, just as a woman who's cheating and then crying rape the next day.

    As for 'gaining consent', does the legislation specify how this is to be done? Because a lot of legislation assumes consent unless explicitly given otherwise, so you can all put your tape recorders away.....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    briggi wrote:
    If you did even the smallest amount of reading into the subject, you'd see that cases of females raping males/other females are situationally very different. It is very, very rare to hear of a case where a woman has raped a man (or another woman) as a result of meeting them when they were paralytic in a bar.

    Its very rare because men dont like to admit it. And hey... I could be here slagging men off but i'm trying to get people to see it from the other side aswell.
    Its the same as when a woman says shes taking the pill, when she isn't and tricks a guy into getting her pregnant! Should there not be a law against that. Men get all the grief and I feel sorry for them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I know it's rare, I'm not having a go...I'm just saying. :)

    It's reckoned that only 1 in 6 women report the fact that they've been raped, and that 1 in 6 women are a victim of sexual abuse in their lifetime. So 1 in 6 of 1 in 6 women report their rapes. I imagine that it's even less likely for a man to report being assaulted or raped, but the fact is that statistics (I know...) show 10% of rape victims are men.

    I am by no means saying only 10%...but that means that 90% are female. It is also worth remembering that a notable percentage of male rapes are committed by other men, not women.

    Anyway, I'm off on a tangent here, so will stop babbling.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    interesting tangent, cause i guess its much more easier for a guy to rape another guy, than it is for a women to rape the same guy
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    women raping men is highly improbable, but as with all things that are not impossible, it has and will have happened

    though it would be much easier to carry around a prosthetic in her handbag
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i really dont think will effect many peoples lifes anyway, i presume most people here are genuine people and dont force themselves on others...

    ive slept with quite a few people when drunk and can honestly say that the topic of consent has ever been risen, its more of a heat of the moment thing leading onto other things, doesnt mean to say i havent checked that a girl is ok with anything thats going on, because thats just caring.

    i'd be lying by saying that the fact they are putting the responsibility on the male didnt bother me but its just one of those things, its always the same.


    just another comment, ive been in some pretty godawful states in my life, but never once have i not known what i was doing at the time, ive regretted them afterwards however...
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