Home Politics & Debate
If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Read the community guidelines before posting ✨

Iraqi Civil War

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Cant see a thread on this, so sorry if its already been mentioned.

Well, it looks like Bush, Blair and co have opened Pandora's Box in Iraq. The Golden Shrine, one of the most important Shiite shrines, is in pieces. and militias on every side are out for blood.

The Iraqi Government is in emergency talks and the President has openly warned of the threat of civil war. Al-Sistani and Al-Sadr have both said Shiites must defend themselves if they come under attack (read: there will be two mobs, not one) and are arguing for greater representation in the militias. Meanwhile, downtown Baghdad has turned into a warzone, over 90 Sunni mosques have been sacked and the presence of Shiite death squads operating among the police is escalating tensions. The daytime curfew is failing to have an effect, and all leave has been cancelled by the police and military.

Reads kind of bad, doesn't it? And while things are bloody now, we don't have open defiance of the Government by the Shiites, yet. But the killings can only continue so long. Prominent Shia families have already been assassinated. What would happen if Sistani, or a powerful political leader, was the next one to fall to a bullet?

If Iraq collapses...it doesn't bear thinking about. There would be a very real possibility of at least 3 bordering countries getting involved. Not to mention what effect that could have on the increasingly unstable Saudi Arabia. They suffered the first attempted attack on oil installations this week. If it had got through, Saudi oil exports would have been halved.

There needs to be a maximum troop presence in Iraq. I dont think we can run away from this, people would follow looking for revenge. Iraq would end up being another Afghanistan, assuming it wasn't totally annexed by Turkey and Iran. Damn Rumsfeld and his doctrine! If there had been half a million troops in Iraq, like the Pentagon wanted, this never would have got as far.
«1

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    just to make it clean, it wasnt the US or the UK, or any coalition force which attacked that golden domed shrine thingy, which was actually quite pretty

    and secondly, i dont think afghanistan is anywhere near as bad as iraq
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MrG wrote:
    just to make it clean, it wasnt the US or the UK, or any coalition force which attacked that golden domed shrine thingy, which was actually quite pretty

    and secondly, i dont think afghanistan is anywhere near as bad as iraq

    True, but would it have been blown up by terrorists when Saddam was in power?

    And to clarify, I meant Afghanistan after the Soviet retreat. Although it is getting worse now there too...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And how do you know this MrG? Were you there to identify the perpetrators who were dressed incognito according the few eyewitnesses there were?

    How logical that the sunnis would attack a mosque of those they need to maintain unity with against coalition forces if they ever hope to gain sufficient critical mass to drive out the occupation? How logical and historically consistent (divide and conquer) with British and US military strategy that it was orchestrated by our enormous covert agency presence (largest of any single base of operations anywhere in the world)?

    And let us recall British SAS caught last year dressed as arabs stirring up trouble (only to be rescued by coalition forces from rightful imprisonment by those we claim to be a sovereign nation once again).

    The implausibility of Iraqi sources for the origin of this renewed mayhem (also coming just at the right time for a PR coup to divert attention away from media scandals against Bush admin connection to Abramoff corruption as well as the escalating wiretapping scandal).

    To make categorical dismissals against very plausible liklihoods is nothing more than blinkered nationalistic wishful thinking.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But there's no logical reason for the US or UK to bomb it. They're already getting enough slcak as it is back home. An all out civil war would just cement the failure of this debacle.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, it would play directly into the hands of those who have been arguing "stay the corse" all the more. That the OP even goes so far as to suggest escalating coalition force presence reaffirms the PR angle to be exploited by increasing instability. All the more so since noone can prove conclusively who was responsible. The argument of plausible liklihood goes to recognisable historic divide and conquer tactics and controlled reporting from successive US/UK theatres of military conquest and political manipulation.

    Remember, enormous sums have already been earmarked for additional expenditure to reinforce our long term presence, even greater amounts can be called for as "necessary" (and I would bet will be) with renewed spin suggesting to western publics that the oft claimed "democratically elected" Iraqi government is incapable of containing the violence.

    If they can't, we must (as such duplicitous logic would contend). Nevermind that our invasion and occupation (with its numerous whitewashed machinations) were and are responsible for the destablisation in the first place.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Afhganistan has hope left. Iraq doesn't.

    Let's just get hte fuck outof Iraq and concentrate of Afghanistan before it fecks up.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The goal of America and th eUK is not to dig in and stay for ever, it is to secure a unified government and maintain oil trading. So long as America can control the nation cheaply with a small military force, America's longer term goals can be recognised. This incident is yet another setback for the Bush Administration in a long line of them that is making securing America's economic status and petrodollar domination more difficult.

    The Shiites and Sunni's hate each other as a result of Saddam's favouritism to his own group and suppression to the majority of the population. There is no desire to unite in Iraq to drive out Americans and British occupation forces. The drive is to become the dominant Muslim group with in Iraq so they can take over once the Americans withdraw enough troops to make a power play.

    This incident is terrible for America and the Coalition forces and plays into the hands of those who want to create enough of a bloodbath to force a withdrawl too soon.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    Afhganistan has hope left. Iraq doesn't.

    Let's just get hte fuck outof Iraq and concentrate of Afghanistan before it fecks up.
    no one in history ever conquered afghanistan.
    the yanks have taken over the capital and thats all.
    they pour millions of dollars into the hands of the warlords to grow opium and keep a false peace.
    outside kabul conditions are much worse for women in many areas than they were under the taliban ...do the yanks or brits care ...no.
    theres nothing in afghanistan for us other than its strategic position.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    subject13 wrote:
    The goal of America and th eUK is not to dig in and stay for ever, it is to secure a unified government .
    rubbish.
    the yanks have so far spent a billion dollars ...iraqi oil dollars ...building super fortresses ...three so far ...which to me says ...we are staying for a long time.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yup.

    The largest military compound since WW2 is surrently under construction. They ain't going anywhere any time soon.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    klintock wrote:
    Yup.

    The largest military compound since WW2 is surrently under construction. They ain't going anywhere any time soon.
    With Iraq i'd agree.

    I'd say Afghanistan... it's not as bad as Iraq... so there is hope. If we can get hte yanks out and start an honest reconstruction.

    This is unlikley with the current Blairite system though. Cameron is the same too. So.. no option.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How logical that the sunnis would attack a mosque of those they need to maintain unity with against coalition forces if they ever hope to gain sufficient critical mass to drive out the occupation? How logical and historically consistent (divide and conquer) with British and US military strategy that it was orchestrated by our enormous covert agency presence (largest of any single base of operations anywhere in the world)?

    theres a certain phrase "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", which isnt actually always true
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The PNAC intention to secure and retain control of central asian resource bonanzas is all clearly spelled out by Brzezinski himself in The Grand Chessboard. Any who truly wish to see the magnitude and perpetual intent of our colonialist-minded aggressions in Afghanistan and Iraq (with more planned) should really read that detailed work.

    Only when you see the whole long planned agenda spelled out will all of this make utter sense for the ideologically-inspired criminality that it is.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    MrG wrote:
    theres a certain phrase "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", which isnt actually always true
    And hardly ever is true.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But little more than a throw away quip given the much more substantive and referential history of these very tactics by our respective countries to advance the prevailing political agendas underlying our numerous conquests.

    A purposely contrived division and fragmantation of an otherwise culturally, religiously and socially intertwined and intermarried society, serves coalition governments' interests far more than it does the interests of those who share a unified desire to see the US/UK driven out.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i thought the point of the super fortresses was to allow domination with minimal personel?
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    subject13 wrote:
    i thought the point of the super fortresses was to allow domination with minimal personel?
    Yes. Then, they can pull troops out and make people at home happy that less of s prescene is needed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So, just what i said, it is the long term goal to have an American withdrawl of troops to free up resources for Iran.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    from an email i'm reading ...

    Ever hear of Khuzestan? Well you're about to hear a lot more about it soon, because that appears to be the only province of Iran that we're actually going to take control of in the up-coming war with Iran.

    It's the province where 90% of the currently producing oil fields are located (see maps above). And it's right next to all our forces in Iraq, so--with an indigenous Arab rebellion--we can easily take Khuzestan on the tired old WMD and democracy excuses. All without the 600,000 troops estimated for a full conquest of all Iran.

    And this is all going to happen sooner rather than later. The Iranians plan to open their own oil "bourse" in March, which will be the first oil state to sell oil for Euros. This will have the effect of driving the dollar down, so Bush and Cheney have great incentive to act now.

    Khuzestan has a population of 3 million plus, Arabs who will be offered a share of the oil their northern Persian masters now control. The Zagros Mountains to the north and east and the Gulf to the south make Khuzestan a natural fortress

    So the old medieval state of Khuzestan will be reinstated by the petrolist fascists. Iran won't have enough oil to sell to drive the dollar down with the Bourse--and their military and society will soon be running on fumes.

    This is officilaly called by global strategists "The Khuzestan Gambit", a risky move to get to Oil Checkmate quickly on "The Grand Chessboard", the regions we usually call the Mideast and Central Asia.

    Khuzestan is actually the province Saddam tried to conquer in the Iraq-Iran War.

    ..........................
    presumably then ...we can expect a terrorist atrocity on american soil soon?
    to galvanise and terrorise the popukation into action ...

    amazing how people can be made to respond in times of war.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So basically, this is the final Gambit? Checkmate if you will in the middle-east oil game?

    USA takes Khuzestan...with minimal troops, then adopts seige mentality to hold the region from Iranian Assault. Should Iran get too aggresive simply reduce their major cities to the ground with air raids, so ground troops dont have to be sacrificed. forcing the Iranians down and having to look inwards on themselves to rebuild.

    The Dollar stays strong. America stays powerful. Euro doesn't take off as expected to. America's colonialist expansion ends and becomes a consolidation exercise.

    Diabolical! Supervillainly Diabolical in fact!
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    So, it'll be the whole of Khuzestan occupied and "liberated". Before the Iranians once again chuck the invader off their land with some amazing tactics with, the same equipment the US has for some parts.

    M1A2 Abrams. Apache. F14 Tomcat. MiG-29 (Ex-Saddam). M-60 Patton. Infinite AK's. Lots of Fanatical, Well-Trained men.

    It's not something to take lightly.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    presumably then ...we can expect a terrorist atrocity on american soil soon?

    Probably.

    I am guessing a nuclear "accident" in Iran itself though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    subject13 wrote:
    So basically, this is the final Gambit? Checkmate if you will in the middle-east oil game?

    USA takes Khuzestan...with minimal troops, then adopts seige mentality to hold the region from Iranian Assault. Should Iran get too aggresive simply reduce their major cities to the ground with air raids, so ground troops dont have to be sacrificed. forcing the Iranians down and having to look inwards on themselves to rebuild.

    The Dollar stays strong. America stays powerful. Euro doesn't take off as expected to. America's colonialist expansion ends and becomes a consolidation exercise.

    Diabolical! Supervillainly Diabolical in fact!
    i reckon the administration saw the chaos well ahead ...and decided it would be very useful.
    it's taken over ten years of bombardment and sanctions to make it possible to take iraq.
    Iraq is one big mess ...as planned.
    if this little corner of iran is occupied and the rest of it has a few bunker busters fired hourly here and there ...they won't be able to get their act together.
    the americans will reduce these people to savagery if need.
    fighting savages is relatively easy in the american mind i reckon.
    and no ...this is very different than vietnam.
    theres no where to hide.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    at the end of the day this is why ...
    yes i burgled klints outlook express box!

    Concern for pricing oil only in dollars helps explain our willingness to drop everything and teach Saddam Hussein a lesson for his defiance in demanding Euros for oil.

    And once again there’s this urgent call for sanctions and threats of force against Iran at the precise time Iran is opening a new oil exchange with all transactions in Euros.

    Using force to compel people to accept money without real value can only work in the short run. It ultimately leads to economic dislocation, both domestic and international, and always ends with a price to be paid.

    The economic law that honest exchange demands only things of real value as currency cannot be repealed. The chaos that one day will ensue from our 35-year experiment with worldwide fiat money will require a return to money of real value. We will know that day is approaching when oil-producing countries demand gold, or its equivalent, for their oil rather than dollars or Euros. The sooner the better.

    :D
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    yes i burgled klints outlook express box!

    So, it was you!!

    I thought it was the usual suspects. hmm lemme see - you been asking people questions, Mr. Roll?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    So, it was you!!

    I thought it was the usual suspects. hmm lemme see - you been asking people questions, Mr. Roll?
    turned up collar tilted hat.
    ...and you won't get me to look into your eyes!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turned up collar tilted hat.
    ...and you won't get me to look into your eyes!

    :lol:

    I wouldn't need to. I can do my stuff in a handshake or a footstep. ;)
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Arg! Outlook Express! No!

    Thats a CIA spying device!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I thought Yahoo was the CIA spying device...and Hotmail was an NSA spying tool?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    at the end of the day this is why ...
    yes i burgled klints outlook express box!

    Concern for pricing oil only in dollars helps explain our willingness to drop everything and teach Saddam Hussein a lesson for his defiance in demanding Euros for oil.

    And once again there’s this urgent call for sanctions and threats of force against Iran at the precise time Iran is opening a new oil exchange with all transactions in Euros.

    Using force to compel people to accept money without real value can only work in the short run. It ultimately leads to economic dislocation, both domestic and international, and always ends with a price to be paid.

    The economic law that honest exchange demands only things of real value as currency cannot be repealed. The chaos that one day will ensue from our 35-year experiment with worldwide fiat money will require a return to money of real value. We will know that day is approaching when oil-producing countries demand gold, or its equivalent, for their oil rather than dollars or Euros. The sooner the better.

    :D


    What do you mean by "value"? Use value? Exchange value?
Sign In or Register to comment.