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And what did that achieve anyway! AT LEAST two wars...provoking hundreds more Islamic terrorists to kill even more innocent people. IMHO 9/11 was less of a challenge to the US and other western countries, and more of a rallying call for a new era of terror to begin
So after that, have Islam, muslims and Islamic values really come out any better off? They have even more people willing to die for their 'cause' now, but Islam has lost a lot of respect (unfortunately) right across western civilisation. Although this terrorist-style war may never be won by westerners (as long as they have enough martyrs to die), equally it will never be won by the terrorists. So ultimately, the only thing they can possibly do is cause MORE hatred and LESS acceptance...our values (or lack of) are never going to change, so they're doing their 'cause' a LOT more harm than good...
Anyway the Koran does not teach to kill your enemies anymore than the bible does, and infact probably a great deal less. The bible is pretty mixed up on this issue, as several different people give different opinions on revenge of enemies etc.
Christians do worthlessly die for their religion all the time. Take the ireland conflict. That has been raging for many years, and lots of people have died, and it all comes down to the religion. May I also mention the crusades? Catholic/ protestant divide in Britain which went on for hundreds of years?
I also find it strange how nobody seems to acknowledge, that fundamentally, christianism, judaism, and islam are all the same religion - worshipping the SAME God. Jesus, the line of david, etc crops up in the koran too (mohammed does not in either the bible, or the jewish holy book, as both were written before the prophet's lifetime).
Also I know many muslims who are perfectly intergrated into society - one which is not particularly accomodating - infact a lot of them are afraid to publicly say that they are muslim, which is a truly sorry state of affairs.
I am not a muslim btw, and have nothing personal against christians either lol
The main difference is that the Bible is interpreted differently from person to person, from church to church. It's a collection of human accounts, whereas Islam to muslims is THE word of God, end of - there is some scope for disagreement, but overall, the message of Islam is generally irrefutable.
Couple that with widespread poverty, foreign occupation, warfare with Israel etc and it's evident the already militant nature of Islam is a powderkeg waiting to be lit.
"The west and Christianity needs to realise, Islam is here and growing. We are the future and Christianity is the past. We are taking over!"
Im sure that was only an edited down version of his full statement, but had me thinking, thats wrong...Islam was power in the Crusades, but considering the poverty of Islamic nations, apart from royal families who control several Muslim kingdoms, and pakistan, a one off nation with Nukes...they aren't really coming. They are too busy with fighting Israel, and America and so on...
According to muslims... the Quran is THE word of God.
Anyway here is an interesting site of the Quran (and Bible) analysed by a sceptic.... http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm
**I hope I'm allowed to post links on this forum btw....**
Although there is some truth that coupled with the social unrest, mistrust, poverty etc, it is likely to blow up in everyone's faces. Not that it hasn't done already.
But did Bin Laden ever say he had anything to do with Islaam? - sorry I can't remember anything but the spin.
of course its his twisted version, I should hope anyway. He is a racist. He declared his war on Christians and Jews after 9/11. Then he decides to go for the people of Iraq as well as the West in general.
His real reasons? He is a nut and a liar and a murderer. He wants the chaos and death of many, innocents included. He'll stir up shit ina country, causing the detahs of thousands as it suits his ideas. Overall he wants to rule. He wants the shit that we hae, but been in charge of it, under a cloak of his extreme religious ideas so he can have a nice after life.
He is dangerous and an intelligent fanatci. Not a freedom fighter. Not a hero. But a selfish bigot that needs to be captured or killed for sure.
Uh...The west was founded on fundamentalist Christian values
.Everything from eastern Europe to the US,but radical
,socialist ,liberalism ,has choked our brains so badly ,that we
no longer identify as a society ,with what the difference
between right ,wrong, and just are anymore.I guess that means
that it's ok to do anything you want, no matter how it affects
you, or those around you,even if the behavior has an adverse
effect on society ,or is detrimental to the advancment of the
species,physically or mentally.To be frank,I'm not a
Christian,I believe religion is a system of beliefs that people
have invented, to add purpose to ,and guide their lives,and to
somewhat ease this defense mechanism we call our consience.If
you think about it,Your conscience as a defense mechanism is
designed to keep you from firstly doing harm to yourself,and
secondly from doing harm to your species.If you try to go
against your conscience ,you automatically have an irresistable
urge to right your wrong.It's in essence ,is what enables us to
propell ,and advance our ways of dealing with eachother and
coexist.U.S. and most western law is based on the laws of
Moses.The ten commandments if you will.
The law of Islam ,Sharia, as compared to the laws of Moses,you
will find that not only does it allow a sort of escape clause
to itself,but in alot of parts is contradictory of it's
religion.
Islam tells you to do good unto others and then tells you ,that
if someone is an infadel that it is your duty as a Muslim to
convert them,
or drive them from your land.Then of course you have to cut off
their legs arms ,and heads ,so that they may never return.
Sounds a bit like fascism to me.Believe as I do or suffer the
consequences?
Islamic law states that you must kill your own ,daughter or
son,if they dishonor you or anothers family.That's kinda rough
by western standards, thanks mostly to our acceptance of the
laws of the ten commandments,and it shows how much more
advanced a civilization the west is when compared to the so
called 3rd world.Speaking as a non Christian, I will admit that
the ten commandments of the Jews, and Christians seem to lend
themselves more redily to the advancement and well being of the
human species.
With that said,I do not believe that Islam is in any way
compatible with western values.They simply are too far removed
from eachother.
I also believe ,that it would be a safe assumption to make,if I
were to conclude that ,since the entire purpose of Islam, is to
meet Allah in the afterlife ,and claim your reward when you
die,then Islam does not support the advancment of civilization
or the human species,and is therefore a system of beliefs that
the world could live without,and maybe be better off.
If you follow the advancement of civilization ,you will see
that in order to advance,changes are made.Some times things
that are no longer ,needed are lost and forgotten,for the
better.I think It may be that time again.
Bloody speed reading filling my head with crap again. (Not that theres much room left, you might add)
Basically arguing that the west is currently founded on christian values, when of course it is currently founded on a rejection of christianity and dogma of all kinds.
Which is where we have our current problem. On the one hand we have a rational (ish) set of people who hold their views relatively flexibly, having noticed that when you do this your standard of living goes up quite considerably.
On the other we have believers in myths and legends who don't care that you get better off now (better housing, better food, better healthcare etc) because your eternal soul is fucked unless you obey a document written back when people were still wondering where babies came from and the earth was a hundred miles accross, flat and the centre of everything.
The fact is,Muslims ,and Islam have been left behind in the social evoloution process.
They live in the days of yore ,because their system of beliefs does not allow them to proceed.
History will show that throughout time ,that this belief system has been detrimental to it's followers.Some people will be angry with what i suggest but it's reality.
We need to drop all the hurt feelings ,set aside our predispositions,and get down to the truth,no matter who's feelings get trampled.
You need to ask yourself about all of your descisions as a person,and apply these questions to your descisions.This ,I believe ,is the most important natural factor in derermining if you have made the right choices in you life.
Let us forget about all of the emotional, and idealogicals for a moment,and focus purely on the mental and physical aspects.
Is my choice beneficial for the advancment of my species?
Is my choice benefecial for the advancment of my community?
Is my choice beneficial for my own personal advancment?
You see, when you set aside all the emotions,wich are the counter to logical thinking, and clarity,you can get down to the bare essentials of what needs to be done.
Try to apply these questions to your daily life,and you just may find that alot of the behaviors in our most modern of societies ,that we posess ,and practice,and the choices we make,no matter how they make us feel, may not actually be the good choice at all.
You will see the natural difference in right and wrong.
You will be able to more clearly understand how it affects you, and your communities.
The law of moses also states Thou shalt not commit murder.
It does not say Thou shalt not kill.
Draw your own distinction ..........but please apply the questions.
Our efforts in manipulating the physical world "allow" that.
Don't agree with this. Things have rarely been better, at least in the "west". There has never been a better time to be alive as a human in all history.
This is true of all belief systems. A flexibility in thinking is key if you are going to make new and more useful models of how the world works. Beliefs in the imaginary are all well and good but theres always a point that they start to get in the way.
No such thing.
No such thing.
No such thing. You are as you are. You can go learn stuff new, but it's not like life is an RPG or anything. Ding! I am now a level 6 car salesmen and a level 4 husband! Doesn't work like that.
I've heard this a few times from the american "pay-triots". Do you really think that we'd like killing if you made it legal? And what the hell has Moses got to do with me or anyone else thousands of years after his death?