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what is your viewpoint of feminism?

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    pretty much agree with you there, which is why we still need feminism just as much as we ever did. women are still treated as inferior, second class citizens, disadvantaged in all aspects of life, and much of this is due to the fact that child rearing and mothering are so undervalued socially.

    All? I wouldn't have said that. Women have vastly more sexual choice and opportunity than men, for a start. You also live longer, and have financial benfits over men in a few areas.

    It depends which woman as well. A 19 year old who looks like a playboy bunny has more opportunities and power than 99% of men on the planet, and all she had to do for it was get born. The 1% of men who can match those opportunities will have to have great wealth or fame or political connections.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    It depends which woman as well. A 19 year old who looks like a playboy bunny has more opportunities and power than 99% of men on the planet, and all she had to do for it was get born. The 1% of men who can match those opportunities will have to have great wealth or fame or political connections.
    I agree with you. But would you not say that the only reason that that girl would have this opportunity was because of the fact that men still have the majority of the power? Would she be as likely to have all of this opportunity if it was women who controlled the majority of businesses etc?

    An attractive man might have equal power over women sexually as an attractive woman has over men, but having that sort of power over women doesn't get you as far as having that sort of power over men, since men still control everything......if you get what I mean.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree with you. But would you not say that the only reason that that girl would have this opportunity was because of the fact that men still have the majority of the power? Would she be as likely to have all of this opportunity if it was women who controlled the majority of businesses etc?

    True, didn't think of it that way round. Even if you got equality though, then men would own 50% of businesses, and she would still have more power than 99% of men.
    An attractive man might have equal power over women sexually as an attractive woman has over men, but having that sort of power over women doesn't get you as far as having that sort of power over men, since men still control everything......if you get what I mean.

    Because of the way male and female sexuality work it's never going to be the case. Men - look - want - do (if they can) Women look - want - all kinds of secondary checks due to the fact that if the sexual act is successful they'll have someone to look after for 18 years - do (if they can)

    In other words, if a playboy bunny lookeylikey rang for a pizza, asked the delivery boy for a shag, she'd be almost guaranteed to get one then and there, and he'd still be telling his mates about it at 90 years of age. Is that true the other way around?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Because of the way male and female sexuality work it's never going to be the case. Men - look - want - do (if they can) Women look - want - all kinds of secondary checks due to the fact that if the sexual act is successful they'll have someone to look after for 18 years - do (if they can)

    In other words, if a playboy bunny lookeylikey rang for a pizza, asked the delivery boy for a shag, she'd be almost guaranteed to get one then and there, and he'd still be telling his mates about it at 90 years of age. Is that true the other way around?
    I was thinking more in the sense that the woman boss would want a bit of eye candy around, rather than neccesarily him sleeping with her to get the job. I think that people like to be surrounded by attractive people, even if they aren't neccesarily planning on making a move. I think subconciously at an interview for example, you would be more likely to pick the more attractive of two equal candidates. Bearing in mind that this is my off-the-cuff psychology in effect here, I know that people are naturally more likely to trust someone that is more attractive ("saw it on TV a while back = know" in my book). If this extends to other qualities, such as percieved professionalism or communication skills, as well as general friendliness, then more attractive people of either sex would have an advantage. If this extends to things like business presentations, for example, then more attractive people will naturally do better in higher positions as well as the initial opportunity.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    Well, to start you wore a blue romper suit. Your family bought you Action Man Marine and tin soldiers not Barbie. They bought you a mountain bike not a pink one with a wicker basket.

    It's hard to find a "gender neutal" toy.

    Your dad played football with you. Your grandad took you to the horses. And so on and so forth.

    The thing is, none of that applies to me. My parents always bought me toys i wanted - when i was young and didnt know what guns and swords were i played with all sorts of toys - many of them traditionally female.
    A lot of how genders interact is through socialisation, and that's the truth. Most socialisation is done long before you step foot in a school. You see how your dad talks and treats to mum, and 20 years down the line you talk to your wife in exactly the same way.

    My father gets ruled by my mother. She has the last say on most decisions, and he's as passive a man as you'll find. As I said, testosterone and oxycontin etc differ between the sexes - that's scientifically established - and this accounts for much of the difference.

    I haven't denied that socialisation plays its part, it obviously is a factor - but inherent difference is by and large accepted in the psychological field, however controversial people find it. In the 60s/70s - before developments in psychology and the advent of evolutionary psychology in particular - the socialisation school of thought was in a far stronger position than it is now. The question most psychologists are now focussing upon is the amount of lee-way an alternate socialisation would offer, with strong, inherent difference largely established as reality.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    what is feminism to you?

    simple really, personally i seperate feminism from the fight to get equal and fair rights for all people, and thus i dont really have a definition of feminism myself


    I don't subscribe to the 'all feminists are hairy moaning old hags' idea.

    Perhaps women and young girls today don't realise what efforts were made in the 'woman's movement' back in the 60's and 70's. Personally I wouldn't call myself a feminist because the moniker is associated with a warped idea of what feminism really is.

    Feminism to me is being able to be treated equally in terms of my personal relationships with both sexes. It's fighting not to be better or to get better things, but to be equal and most importantly to be viewed as emotionally and mentaly equal. Sadly, I don't think we're quite there yet.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think thats a general argument of most femanists Ive heard it a few times,

    Wernt people earlier saying its just about equality ? wouldnt there just be one kind.
    Which feminists have you looked in to?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    RE: different schools of feminist thought.

    Can somebody explain or provide links detailing these different forms of feminism?

    Other than the notion of equality of pay etc, which no-one is seriously going to argue, there seems to be a lack of ideological explanation for what feminism actually is. Who are these feminists who shouldn't be listened to, who are the feminist who should, and to what schools of feminist thought do they belong :confused:

    Also...if i agree with legal equality and the right to equal pay...does this make me a feminist, even though i believe inherent difference is more important than socialisation? To me, both these opinions are compatible, but i've never met a feminist who wouldn't laugh at the idea...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the dictionary defines feminism as "belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes".

    Apart from equal pay, what does this actually entail? "social, political and economic equality" are rather vague terms.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    RE: different schools of feminist thought.

    Can somebody explain or provide links detailing these different forms of feminism?

    Schools of Feminist Thought

    I'm not 100% that it's exhaustive, but it's a bloody good start (and very interesting).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    Apart from equal pay, what does this actually entail? "social, political and economic equality" are rather vague terms.
    Well I guess that's why there's so many arguments about it and different points of view. I've always understood feminism in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer sense rather than the hairy armpit, no bra sense.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    RE: different schools of feminist thought.

    Also...if i agree with legal equality and the right to equal pay...does this make me a feminist, even though i believe inherent difference is more important than socialisation? To me, both these opinions are compatible, but i've never met a feminist who wouldn't laugh at the idea...
    If you saw women as equal, personally I'd see you as a feminist... That is equal, not different. It's not like it's a bad thing, but unfortunately feminism is demonised by the right wing press as if it's about harming men or as if it's destroying society.
    Can somebody explain or provide links detailing these different forms of feminism?

    Sure... But could you please post a link about hormones and chemicals to back up what you were saying before?

    Wikipedia definition.

    The first wave of feminism came about the Enlightenment period in philosophy (it could also be argued that the Western secular idea of human rights is heavily influenced by the Enlightenment philosopher Immanuel Kant), which is why it was stupid earlier where somebody assumed that Germaine Greer somehow invented feminism... However she did do a lot of research in to the roots of First Wave feminism and also has written books about female poets (I actually went to see her give a speech on the book she wrote, which is actually quite hard to get hold of now) as well as feminism.

    Radical Feminism = Women's problems are caused by the dominance and evils of patriarchy.

    Gender Feminism = Abolishing gender rles completely.

    Difference/Cultural Feminists = Says that women and men are different, but some say that because women are kinder and more caring than men, we would have less wars.

    Socialist and Marxist Feminists = Oppression of women can only end once we abolish class oppression, cultural oppression ect

    Seperatist Feminists = Are what people try and tar every feminist with.

    There's several types.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    exactly, i can't really answer that question on here because there about a million books, articles and debates on this topic and no agreement. i have my view of what i think feminism should be about, but that will clash with the ideas of other feminists, as well as non-feminists.

    So what exactly would you like to see change?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    subject13 wrote:
    Germaine Greer? One feminist that practically doesnt right anymore compared to library fulls of books...who needs telly whore Germaine Greer anyway


    beg your pardon :confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    so reclaim the term! it's not feminists who twisted and distorted the word, but those who perceived an improvement in women's social position to be a threat. i refuse to abandon the word feminism just because a lot of ignorant people choose to misunderstand it or distort it, either through wilful manipulation or ignorance. the dictionary defines feminism as "belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes", so we we shouldn't let all the anti-feminist propaganda about how it actually means women should be superior and segregate themselves from men prevent us from using the word.


    yeah - I think you are right. I think a ot of men are badly educated and confused about stuff (not all just a lot) so they tend to make a big deal about hormones and moods, when the reality is that we are all equal and we all have hormonal changes that are most definately there and should be discussed in amature way. I mean, the amount of men I have met who can't say or discuss the word 'tampon' without thinking it's something that is funny or disgusting - it's bizzare.

    Many men will go through relationships with their girlfriends and daughters without ever being able to talk to them as equal human beings! It's very sad.

    Luckily I seem to have some good male friends who are mature and have been raised well by their parents.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    byny wrote:
    beg your pardon :confused:
    She likes her tv as it allows her to finance the preservation of land she owns. i think its the rain forrest in Africa but i am not sure.

    There is nothing wrong with been a press/television/media whore anyway! It gets you into positions to do things!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :confused:

    where did i do this? i just asked you to back up your claims. i haven't "jumped down your throat" anywhere...although of course, maybe you're just one of those men who's threatened by an educated, opinionated woman, and thinks that if she's being assertive or arguing with you, it must be because she's stroppy...?


    Well, im glad to see you dont pigeon hole men into a single type, you at least left the option of other kind of men :love:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Who said you were all lesbians? Just because my opinions on the evolution of the theory differ to your doesnt mean i do not like feminists you know.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    -women's roles and jobs in our society to be properly valued and remunerated as such. certain jobs which are dominated by women and yet are absolutely vital to the functioning of society receive scandalously low wages eg, nursing, taking care of children, the elderly - vital jobs yet those who do them scarcely make a living.
    Is it not the same for male dominated jobs like construction workers though too, jobs that are equally essential?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Definition of "Feminism" taken from http://www.amazoncastle.com/feminism/ecocult.shtml

    Feminism:

    Feminism is theory that men and women should be equal politically, economically and socially.

    This is the core of all feminism theories. Sometimes this definition is also referred to as "core feminism" or "core feminist theory." Notice that this theory does not subscribe to differences between men and women or similarities between men and women, nor does it refer to excluding men or only furthering women's causes. Most other branches of feminism do.

    Why you believe in feminism and what your ideas are to make feminism a reality is what causes arguments within the feminism movement.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I understand that, but I don't see why that is specifically a feminist issue. Surely that's just an issue of people not getting paid enough for doing a skilled and important job. Is it just that you think that "female skills" should be rewarded equally to "male skills"? Because surely if both nurse and construction workers are getting equally screwed as it were, then it's not an issue of male skills being rewarded more than female skills, rather both being equally underpaid.
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