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The legality of this is difficult, they are basing some of the authority on a law which was passed in the aftermath of September the 11th which said that he was allowed to do anything 'reasonable' to catch those responsible.
i saw a thing about the stasi (former GDP/east germany secret police) as east germany was collapsing on itself and it was effectively trying to track everyone it has 1000s of unfiled reports etc it got that bad for them they collapsed under their own bureaucracy
is effectivetly whats being saird here.
COuntries listen in on each other all the time, even allies. Fact.
Governments and intelligence services make judgement calls on whats best for people and themselves.
None of you on here work in secret intelligence or high level government where people's lives are in you hands, am I correct? So basically all you can do is conjecture on whats ritght and wrong with the security services.
As I said, I thought the American government already had a wire tap system in place, long before Bush rode into washington so its no biggie for me.
its just the fact sof life people.
The government is not sitting there thinking "how do we get bong,klintock, kermit and those other guys of that message board". They don't do this for fun. They do things for a reason, usually good reasons that can't always be understood by the masses.
You still have your overall freedom. But they have security issues to deal with. In place slike communist russia and germany and numerous dictatorships, people were pulled off the street and killed because they opposed there government in the same way as protestors do now, except here and in the usa they are allowed to do that. What they ar enot allowed to do is launch attack son civilain populations. There i sa difference. The governments here target terrorists, the governments you cite as the tactics they are stealing targetting those that opposed the government.
Governments have bumped people off yes and done there own deals, made a few sidelines in money no doubt I am sure.
But no system is perfect, I mean NO system. Fact. You do best with what you have and the mo, this one is the best we have.
Add "to pay us more money and do what we say" and that's ALL the government thinks about.
Defining citizen, country, state and government is the first job in this debate.
Over to you, Walkindude.
Well there are some controls bong, I mean a minister can't steal a bunch of tx money and what have you but in things like security then there has to be some leway.
Well it's existence or not doesn't depend on my opinions, for one thing, for another, it doesn't depend on your either.
So, as said above, you think it is a GOOD thing what he is doing?
Really, you are quite blind. Quite, quite blind. Last time someone sat back whilst this happened, look what we had:
- Hitler
- Stalin
- Mao
- Etc
When Government starts taking these kinds of powers... it is for one reason. To rule, by Fear.
I agree. Glad to see another anarchist, have a word with Blagsta about it, he'll put you right about what anarchism is and isn't. (And insist his version is the right one
Of course no system is perfect - which is why me must strive to make a perfect one, imho.
OK, I will re-phrase my question, an uncontrolled secruity service is ok?
Bush is nowhere near on the plane of hitler and stalin etc, and that truly shows your ignorance and no doubt inspiration by the current pop-culture political rebellion.
How can bush treason himself by phone taps?? that doesn't make sense.
And its not cowardice if I support the security mesaures, in fact its the opposite. tsk tsk.
When american tanks are driving down my street, my books are burned, I am made to worship Bush and protesters start getting executed, thenI will bow to you and agree that its a rule by fear, but for no its nowhere near and its just another tool to achive an end of intelligence gathering. Simple as.
No system is perfect and forgive my lack of faith but I doubt anyone on here is gonna come up with a better one. As far as I see, the one we have now is ok, flawed but ok overall so I don't knock it so much or make ridiculous claims about it.
Sometimes you have to know and understand life is life sometimes and not a movie. The government is not always the bad guys. here is not always black and white. The kid with the loud voice saying rebellion is not a hero.
Sounds great. Better go tell the government that, because the fuckwits who work in it think they are always correct, that what they say is black is black and what you say has no meaning, especially if it's white.
By all means go and argue with them. Best take an army though, because they will definitely be using violence when you do.
It will be too fucking late. Jesus. :banghead:
Glad you agree. How do you want to wind down the current one?
a) Hitler wasn't when he started out. Stalin initially kept it the same. Then they took more power for themselves... everyone thought Hitler wasn't a bad guy to begin with. Alot of Brits thought he was great... then look!
b) That kid is usually some twat angsty teen who will say rebellion, then go eat at McDonalds, and buy into all the designer stuff, and never take action. Probably even vote conservative.
Anyway, You think Bush is right to do this, obviously. Spying on your own citizens is OK, after all, they voted him in, right? Surley it stops terrorism? No, it doesn't, and never will. WHY are people in Guatanamo? Because ,there is NO evidence to keep them anywhere else, they are outside the law in Cuba. So, these spying mesures will get this evidence? No. The very IDEA of terrorism is you DONT KNOW when or where, who or how. Look at the London Bombers - School Teacher. Student Cricket Player. NO prior evidence. The terrorist is always MEANT to be the guy you least suspect, who DELIBERATLEY hides his actions. He isn't ignorant enough to phone someone up and say "Oi, mate, reackon you can get us 12lb of C4 fer thursday? Nice one." The only people who will suffer are the general populance, who will keep getting pestered and fucked with. And of course, anyone after Bush who will, maybe and probably, abuse these powers, unless they are got rid of.
You won't worship Bush either, if it goes that way... it'll be Cheny. He is running it, Bush is just the figurehead and fall guy anyway.
Bush has low opinion polls, where as Hitler was "TIME" Magazines man of the year!
33% of Germans Voted Hitler. A MAJORITY of Americans Voted Bush. Get the facts right.
Stalin was Man of The Year twice. I think we can see where this is going...
Bush may not take Complete Rule. The NEXT guy might. You don't know wnho is next, or what they'll do with such powers. Hitler, Mussolini, both used powers already laid down by people before them. As did Stalin, but he took over a Dictatorship anyway, so he was a cheating bastard.
Correct it isn't cowardice to support security measures. However it is cowardice to not be willing to acknowledge that you have been wronged.
Also, if you check, Hitler was never ever elected to power technically, he was appointed to the position of Chancellor by the President of Germany, and on the Presidents death he was the only politician with any support or in a position to take over due to the electoral system of proportional representation.
The point is Bush is nothing! He will be nothing! And lets be realistic, all empires and superpowers crumble into dust, America is on the wain so lets not cry a river who takes over next...
...It will be Hillary Clinton though!!!
Hitler was elected to that position, either way, because he got the MOST votes... how Democracy works. Don't matter if your a majority or not, just get more than everyone else.
Either way... these powers are worrying for the US people. Whoever gets in next, if these powers be allowed, can do alot with them. Sure, all superpowers cannot last forever, but that doesn't take away the fact the American people are being fucked over, here.
Bush got elected due to the ridiculous notion of the electoral college system where you win states votes not on individual votes.
cheny is in charge? now that is th emost ridiculous thing I have heard. If he takes over as presdident I might just eat bin ladens beard! that guy is a too old, to heart attacked prone, moron who doesn't stand a chance. He wll go back to the boards of Haliburton when Bush goes. The new president wheover he or she is will make their own legacy and do things there own way, if its a democrat then I doubt they will be leading the charge of expanding an empires or ruling the american people like a king or any of those wild claims being made.
There is always a way to get round laws, epsicelally for the government etc, so your gnna have a hard to time proving treason against you and unless you can prove the phone taps are against the interests of the american people or is specially for the harm of the people or even a betryal for th ebenfit of another country, then you cannot prove treason.
You people seem to assume Bush is Hitler already yet he displys none of the actions I cited as dictator. It will not be "too late", it has to be now to prove your claims. Until then you don't have grounds.
It isn't cowardice for me, I don't live in america, he doesnt done owt to me so he hasn't wronged me.
Your right, the terrorist isn't always the most obvious persona nd they are detailed and clever in thei rmethods. Thats why you rstandard stake outs don't work, thats why you have to move fast and not wait for judges to sing off on pieces of pwper after some legally sound document has taken hours to draft up, thats why they were fully capable of puuling of 9/11 and not needing any CIA involvement....
I don't want to wind down the current klintock. I am fairly happy how the systme is. I mean in the case of th usa, I'd rather have bill clinton back anyday, that guy could be president for life in my opinion and to anyone that doubts him, he was recently voted most sutiable and most wanted by professionals, acedemics and general people as the msn most suited to be leader of the world. Pretty impressive.
but yeah, things aren't so bad. I mean I bitch about the tax I pay on my crappy temp job I just loast but you can never get away from taxes can you? Its just not that bad. You get the corrupt ones when you find them, sort your system as best you can. Its all you can do.
Bush is the cognomen of he that is doomed
Three generations have sworn to their lord of gloom
God spoke through a burning Bush that then bloomed
The burning Bush is the end of power from the Tomb