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Gays in the Military!
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I see no problem with unisex shower facilities - the scandinavians manage to have mixed sex saunas without outrage. The problem with mixed sex sleeping quaters is snoring. men can put up with men snoring, and women can't.
Well many would. Women mostly.
The issue is what would make our military the most effective it can be. Throw in sex and sexuality and you dilute that effectiveness. It may not be right, but that's how is.
And just have a look at how this poll is going please... poll
What a load of bollocks. I say that you seem to be insecure about sex in general - not just homosexuality - because you are making it out to be a big thing. According to you people having sexual relationships is uniquely damaging to the fighting efficiency of a military unit.
no one is denying there is an effect. Just that it is a significant one.
I doubt I'll be responding to you further in this thread; you seem to be quite irrational, you ignore any information that doesn't fit your hypothesis, you take statistically insignificant events and make them out to be vital - discusion with you is pointless.
What has that poll got to do with this? this is a better question
The Don't Ask Don't tell system is good in principle, it makes it so that the issue doesn't even come up. The problem comes from when the brass doesn't hold up its side of the bargin, many times the military will deliberatly trying to dig into peoples person choices.
What concerns me in the military a little bit is the restriction on relationships. You can't have relationships between certain ranks in some countries and cases. I guess there is a point to it, favoritism, losing objectivity in battle but I always feel uncomfortable when their are rules about who you can and can't have a relationship with.
At the end of the day, a modern civilised army (certainly the type of army the MoD is trying to promote the British Army as) should have no room for knuckle dragging cavemen.
Incidentally, I've seen many gay men (and known one or two) who wouldn't have much problem kicking seven shades of shit of any army 'lad' put in front of them.
Perhaps we should send those who doubt the ability of gay men in combat to certain gay nightclubs. I think their perception would change rather quickly...
Its particually important within the teeth arms (the infantry and armour) which will actually have to engage with the enemy - one of the reasons women are excluded from front line combat.
Like it or not having homosexuals in does damage that small unit efficiency. Many other ranks come from a working class background, where there is a strong dislike of homosexuality and it is seen as deviant. Whether they are right or not is irrelevant. That is how many feel and having an overtly gay soldier does damage unit cohesion.
That said there is now the 'perfect world' argument. In a perfect world we wouldn't need armies, in a slightly less perfect world all soldiers would be paragons of virtue and the liberal values so cherished in peacetime would be equally relevant in war.
Its not a perfect world though. So in an even less perfect world the armed forces should have the ability to recruit who they want and exclude women and homosexuals.
The trouble with this is that though the armed forces have to be somewhat out of step with society, they cannnot be so far behind (or in front) that society does not recognise them and their values. Given that society, as a whole, tends to believe that homosexuals shouldn't be discriminated against, the army has to fall in line and just do the best it can - as they always do. It won't be the first time, nor the last, that civilian amateurs who know nothing about soldiering can tell the Army what to do. That's the price of soldiering in a democratic, civilian society.
I really don't see why the army should be a special case. If we used such arguments elsewhere gays would be banned from countless jobs from A & E departments to football teams, just in case their sexual orientation distracted the 'team' from the job at hand.
As a matter of fact any sort of homophobic prejudice should be stamped out of the army at all costs. It's just another sort of bullying- and the same twat openly saying that he's not comfortable with Mr Poofter over there being part of their unit is going to be a prime candidate for being a full blown bully. No place in the army for such people.
I thought the MoD was trying to give us an armed forces which won wars - it would certainly explain some of the frankly bizzare decisions they've made if in fact that is secondary to producing an army based on political correctness.
If the British Army is doing something well is trying to ensure troops are not abusive and bullying- to varying degrees of success anyway. 'Political correctness' it ain't- but it's common sense to have soldiers who are balanced and decent people instead of rough, semi-educated cowboys.
To that I'd agree, but whilst I don't want us to be like the French or US- I'm not keen that the British Army becomes like the Dutch either.
Now I don't want soldiers who go 'queer bashing' but I don't mind having soldiers who feel uncomfortable around gays or make sexist and homophobic jokes. In fact I'd bet on people like that to protect my back (and have done), more so than many 'liberals' who preach tolerance, but won't get their hands dirty with soldiering.
If we only got fully tolerant individuals, who are also bloody good soldiers, we'd wouldn't get enough people to full a platoon.
They did. The minority changes but the arguments for excluding them from the military stay the same. :banghead:
I don't think anybodies opinions on this matter are going to be changed.
I've also seen photos of a Black Piper circa late 1940s in Palestine.
Setting up a dictatorship wouldn't be beneficial for the country - so it's not practical. Practical for forcing legislation through but little else.
If you think that an army should be 'representative' because of an ideal to the detriment of its effectiveness then that's up to you.
The will of people does not direct the Army's operations. If you think that then you're seriously misguided. Look at Iraq & Afghanistan, those conflicts have nothing to do with the will of the people but the will of a minority.
The point is most straight men in the army aren't going to be happy with homosexuals in the ranks because of the intimacy factor - that's not something you can change. In the forces a close-knit bong has to form amongst the ranks - obviously very important when going into combat. same thing when i ran with gangs when younger. That bond isn't going to be forged easily with homosexuals in the ranks. Sad, perhaps - true, definitely.
The whole "oh you're just insecure" nonsense is just daft. Nothing insecure about preferring to live so intimately with heterosexuals of your own sex. Bet you'd be the first to complain about guys perving over you in such a circumstance.
If I wouldn't be happy with it - someone on the Left with an open mind - then you'd get told to fuck off point blank by your average squaddie.
The problem is you don't understand the gang mentality possessed by a lot of males...that's the stumbling block for your misplaced ideals...misplaced because in an ideal world there would be no need for armed forces in the first place.
Not many I would think.
ahhh, so THAT's what the lads are doing over in Afghanistan. :thumb:
One way to deal with the massive increase in Poppies, I suppose.
Studies do show that don't ask don't tell is harmful to unit cohesion, and that soldiers being out improves the cohesion.
I don't know how else to explain those projecting their own fears onto our fighting men, despite evidence given that they generally don't mind.
I'm not basing this on ideals, merely on the basis that Gay men have always served in the military, and always will. Often when their sexuality was discovered they were blackmailed/forced into performing sexual servies for the straight ratings/squaddies. Modern studies show that unlike you moaning civvies soldiers actually don't have a problem with gays in their units (although they may have a problem with the abstract notion of gays, they don't mind Tom who actually is gay)
Which ones are these? As far as Id experienced squaddies tended to be homophobic, xenophobic, sexist, you name it. Just from my personal experience, not a generalisation, but Id imagine its a culture of intoleerance that carries through to some extent.
Pretty much - Israel removed women from front line combat because it broke up unit efficiency. The myths of hordes of women combat troops under the USSR is just that - a myth.
Studies done by academics who have never worn uniform in their lives. I base my views on having been a regular soldier. That's my back up - please let me know of your actual experience, rather than what you have read
oh look, its mr shit stirring across multiple threads again. Grow up.