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The lads mags

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    did you know that ending a sentence with a question is a femine trait?

    You've lost the plot mate.
    did you know that constantly avoiding questions is seriously fucking annoying when your the one who makes the accusation of such behaviour more than anyone else in here?
    it was a simple question.

    Ok, you want an answer to your absurd question?

    do you actualy see women as some down trodden slave class
    No.

    in rags of pain and abuse?
    No.

    Happy now?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough wrote:
    Eh no, I've already said what we see now is an extension of previous ideals, but what does it really matter anyway. You seem to think that it's some disease on the world, the people that go out and say "look at the tits on that" are more than likely the same people that cuddle up with their girlfriends, take them to the cinema or a restaurant and tell them how beatiful they are, you seem to think that because they see lots of things (including lads mags but more) that seem to objectify women that they're automatically going to do it. Then you bring in the patriarchical and low womens wages to either justify or back up that point. Which I think is wrong and why I think you're reading into it far too much.

    No, I haven't said any of that, but never mind.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    No, I haven't said any of that, but never mind.

    Yep I make a perfectly valid point and you ignore it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough wrote:
    Yep I make a perfectly valid point and you ignore it.

    Except that you're seeing my point in far too a simplistic manner. Partly my fault I guess and partly a result of the medium. Its hard to have a complex discussion about these things on bulletin boards.

    However, answer me this - has the representation of the female form in art changed over time?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Happy now?
    yes thankyou.
    i was getting worried that all this objectification of women was causing some serious harm somewhere along the line.
    seems we agree on something at last.
    that lads mags have a neglible impact if any at all.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    yes thankyou.
    i was getting worried that all this objectification of women was causing some serious harm somewhere along the line.
    seems we agree on something at last.
    that lads mags have a neglible impact if any at all.

    Good argument mr. :rolleyes: Why do you bother?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    However, answer me this - has the representation of the female form in art changed over time?

    Yes but what's your point, that's got nothing to do with thinking men objectify women just because they say "that" in a sexual comment.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Why do you bother?
    ...and only a few posts back you were asking yourself the same question.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough wrote:
    Yes but what's your point, that's got nothing to do with thinking men objectify women just because they say "that" in a sexual comment.

    My point is that ideals of beauty are culturally determined. Not directly related, no, but partly related. Without a common ground in art history/theory and cultural theory, this discussion is pointless. John Berger's "Ways of Seeing" is a good start. Hopefully you don't have the same aversion to reading as morrocon roll does.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    My point is that ideals of beauty are culturally determined. Not directly related, no, but partly related. Without a common ground in art history/theory and cultural theory, this discussion is pointless. John Berger's "Ways of Seeing" is a good start. Hopefully you don't have the same aversion to reading as morrocon roll does.

    I'm fully aware of how women are seen throughout history, it seems to go around in circles like most things.

    I still don't see how lads mags are really going to have a negative impact on how men or society views women, the media obviously has seen the opportunity to make a few bucks by this and maybe it does have a bad message, though it's not going to affect culture and society in a bad way IMHO.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough wrote:
    I'm fully aware of how women are seen throughout history, it seems to go around in circles like most things.

    I still don't see how lads mags are really going to have a negative impact on how men or society views women, the media obviously has seen the opportunity to make a few bucks by this and maybe it does have a bad message, though it's not going to affect culture and society in a bad way IMHO.

    Personally I think that teenage lads seeing women presented in this way as not very healthy. And yes, I'm fully aware that teenage lads look at porn, however porn has always been seperate, top shelf. Lads mags are common cultural currency and aren't seen as seperate in the way that porn is (or was - the net is changing that. That's a whole other thread though).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    My point is that ideals of beauty are culturally determined. Not directly related, no, but partly related. Without a common ground in art history/theory and cultural theory, this discussion is pointless. John Berger's "Ways of Seeing" is a good start. Hopefully you don't have the same aversion to reading as morrocon roll does.
    :lol: you haven't a clue ...i think your reading of what suits your trendy political ideals ...has seriously clouded your judgement and your take on reality.
    constantly having to evoke the thoughts and ideas of others has impeded your development as opposed to nourishing it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :lol: you haven't a clue ...i think your reading of what suits your trendy political ideals ...has seriously clouded your judgement and your take on reality.
    constantly having to evoke the thoughts and ideas of others has impeded your development as opposed to nourishing it.

    Oh look, its morrocon roll avoiding the point and chucking out abuse again.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Personally I think that teenage lads seeing women presented in this way as not very healthy. And yes, I'm fully aware that teenage lads look at porn, however porn has always been seperate, top shelf. Lads mags are common cultural currency and aren't seen as seperate in the way that porn is (or was - the net is changing that. That's a whole other thread though).
    i did ask sometime back ...do you have a 'solution' to what you see as being a problem?
    i think i'm off for a beer ...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i did ask sometime back ...do you have a 'solution' to what you see as being a problem?

    No.
    i think i'm off for a beer ...

    Have fun. :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Oh look, its morrocon roll avoiding the point and chucking out abuse again.
    whilst you constantly act like some child who's toys fell out the pram it's difficult not to.

    if i just nod and agree ...will that make you happier?
    gnight for now.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    For those that don't have an aversion to reading and education
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140135154/qid=1133815243/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_11_1/203-2261922-7926338

    0140135154.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
    "Seeing comes before words. The child looks and recognizes before it can speak.""But there is also another sense in which seeing comes before words. It is seeing which establishes our place in the surrounding world; we explain that world with words, but word can never undo the fact that we are surrounded by it. The relation between what we see and what we know is never settled."John Berger's "Ways of Seeing" is one of the most stimulating and the most influential books on art in any language. First published in 1972, it was based on the BBC television series about which the "London Sunday Times" critic commented: "This is an eye-opener in more ways than one: by concentrating on how we look at paintings ...he will almost certainly change the way you look at pictures." By now he has.

    Required reading on any art or design degree.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    whilst you constantly act like some child who's toys fell out the pram it's difficult not to.


    Errrmmm...you're the one chucking the abuse around on this thread. I've actually been very restrained.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    yeh i agree with is.
    you boys can say that laddish culture isn't a big deal but then you probably don't understand how it really affects women. looks are so important today but more so for women. i've often had guys thinking they can say things to me, grope me and when i turn them down call me a slag. harmless laddish culture? yes of course it is :rolleyes:

    and not just on a night out either. i'm quite worried about entering a career because i don't think a "pretty little girl" like me will ever be taken serious by a man. not until i get older anyway. and even then i think i'll have to work a hell of a lot harder.
    every summer i work in offices and every time the men there see me as an object. i work hard yet they still say derogatory things to me or 'oooh brains as well as beauty' crap except not so eloquently. well i got one of them into shit when he over stepped the mark.

    i would however like to point out that im not always playing the victim. it comes in handy when i can Q-jump and get free drinks.

    and you're right that no-one is forcing these women into going topless in the mags but come-on, what type of society has been created here? its blatantly obvious to me that for a girl to do that then she must crave attention from men to feel good about herself. at least thats how it would start anyway.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Required reading on any art or design degree.

    Influential artists with art and design degrees?

    Can't think of any......or in any other field? hy because those that copy learn nothing but to copy. Rollies right about you, Blagsta. You've a head full of others opinions and most of them are shite.

    Also, most people have fuck all to do with art. Most people go nowhere near it. Most history is remembered through art etc, but you have to recognise it for the vastly unrepresentative gubbins that it is. Art only tells you what was in the artists head. Whether it's got any value to you depends on what's in yours.
    i've often had guys thinking they can say things to me, grope me and when i turn them down call me a slag. harmless laddish culture? yes of course it is :rolleyes:

    The problem is that while you didn't go for it, around the corner some other woman did. He's not gonna stop until it stops working or he finds something that works better for him.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    lipsy wrote:
    yeh i agree with is.
    you boys can say that laddish culture isn't a big deal but then you probably don't understand how it really affects women. looks are so important today but more so for women. i've often had guys thinking they can say things to me, grope me and when i turn them down call me a slag. harmless laddish culture? yes of course it is :rolleyes:

    And why do you think men do this? Because they're twats or is there a deeper social reason behind it, I think you'll find the latter applies.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    lipsy wrote:
    its blatantly obvious to me that for a girl to do that then she must crave attention from men to feel good about herself.

    Nope I think money is the prime reason why women do this. Ego boosts are not really applicible.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough wrote:
    And why do you think men do this? Because they're twats or is there a deeper social reason behind it, I think you'll find the latter applies.
    i never said that they did it because they are twats.

    and i'm not convinced that money is the only driving factor. for example on the fhm website theres a page where you can rate a pic of a woman that a reader has sent in of themselves or their boyfriend has. if thats not objectifying them and makign them nothing more than sex objects i'm not sure what is. and money doesn't even come into that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    lipsy wrote:
    and i'm not convinced that money is the only driving factor. for example on the fhm website theres a page where you can rate a pic of a woman that a reader has sent in of themselves or their boyfriend has. if thats not objectifying them and makign them nothing more than sex objects i'm not sure what is. and money doesn't even come into that.

    So, there's loads of websites like that. hotornot and faceparty are all designed to show off and will not be seen by the majority of people anyway

    Lads mags on the other hand are everywhere, even if you don't buy them you'll see the front cover somewhere. Money is the driving factor there.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough wrote:
    So, there's loads of websites like that. hotornot and faceparty are all designed to show off and will not be seen by the majority of people anyway

    Lads mags on the other hand are everywhere, even if you don't buy them you'll see the front cover somewhere. Money is the driving factor there.
    posing in a sexually provocative way and getting your tits or arse out is not about "showing off". certainly not in the example i gave.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There has been a gigantic amount of point misage on this thread.

    The point is not about putting up a few pictures of a two-bit celeb in a thong bikini, and then printing a few made up letters about how the nurse blew the entire ward whilst doing the okey-cokey.

    The point is about the objectification of women. The point is that the media is increasingly treating and describing people as merchandise- you have to have the right car, you have to have the right watch, you have to have the right suit, and you have to have the right bird. People are being treated as commodities to be acquired, and that should concern all of us. No, of course its not new, but it is something that is getting more prevalent again, and that isn't good.

    Superficially these mags are a good laugh, a bit of fun. There's nowt wrong with ogling some good-looking girl in a bikini.

    The problem is that it is beyond "ooh, look at the rack on that". It goes beyond admiring the scenery in a pub on a night out. It is defining people as objects- look at the lack of difference between how these magazines describe the new Ferrari and how they describe people, especially women.

    Superficially it's all just a laugh. But beyond that, it hard-wires social norms, and makes the objectification of people socially acceptable. The media sets the social and political agenda just as much as the social and political agenda sets the media.

    I aren't being some woolly PC person, I love looking at some fit bird in a bikini as much as the next man, but the fact that people are being ground down into their asthetic components, like how you'd describe and treat a Lotus, should concern people. IT concerns me that people are being treated like cars, and that the media is making this behaviour not just socially accepted, but socially desirable. It should concern everyone.

    It bothers me that anyone who is concerned by it is labelled a woolly sandal-wearing liberal PC nutter. They aren't. If you can't see how people are being objectified so much then that's a concern.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Oh for fucks sake I don't know why I bother.

    Look - I have no problem with appreciating women or even a bit of lechery. What I do have a problem with, is a culture that presents women to be judged purely on their (mostly plastic) tits. I also object to language like "look at the tits on that". "Look at the tits on her" is more acceptable, but referring to a woman as "that", as an object is part of what I'm on about.


    I say "look at the <whatever> on that" plenty if i'm talking about girls i don't know and would have no particular reason for getting to know them other than shagging. In a society which underwent the "sexual revolution" decades ago, girls - and guys - will obviously become "objectified" as people will be shagging about before settling down. So if you're young, single and not looking for a serious relationship then obviously you'll generally see women as sex objects...until you actually get to know someone and you begin to like them...in which case the objectification ends...then you go back to objectification and so on.

    People won't respect strangers or people they have no emotional ties with at the best of times, never mind whilst perving on the opposite sex privately with pals.

    That said, presenting horrible siz 6 blondes as the benchmark for all other women is blantantly wrong and damaging to society.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You can perve without acting like you're shopping for a new watch.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't like to perve. It seems so demeaning.
    I don't like men who view women as targets to be felled.
    I don't like the idea of pornography.

    Do it if you wish but i'd prefer it if I didn't have anything to do with it.
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