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It starts.....obese people to be denied operations

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    What about cosmetic operations? We pay for a health service, we demand an operation!!11!1one!

    Cosmetic operations in cases of body dysmorphia should be allowed.

    But there's a bit of a difference between a cosmetic operation and one which will ease or cure chronic pain. Is there not?

    Or is pain the just rewards for those disgusting fatties?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    Or is pain the just rewards for those disgusting fatties?
    This is about spending limited resources where they will be of most benefit. A prosthesis is more likely to fail in an obese person, thus increasing cost and risks of surgery.

    Is NHS funding unlimited?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    But there's a bit of a difference between a cosmetic operation and one which will ease or cure chronic pain. Is there not?

    I think he's just taking your argument and running with it. If we're not taking into account how the complaint arose and are just focusing on the the fact "i've paid me money, now i want me service" then it has to work both ways. People who pay for the NHS have a right to an operation; well i want a birth mark removed from my arse.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think he's just taking your argument and running with it.

    No he's not, he's extending it in a flawed manner.

    My argument is that people pay money, in the expectation that the NHS will fix chronic pain when required.

    Now the NHS is turning round to the hand that feeds it saying that "no, fuck off fatty, you can't have anything. Go and whimper in the corner- don't you wish you'd not eaten that pie now, eh, fatso?"

    That is completely and totally wrong- morally, ethically and practically.

    I notice they're not kicking Best out on his arse, for instance.

    It is a way of cutting corners by attacking a group that is vilified. Blame the fatties for everything, and nobody cares. They brought it on themselves by eating pie, disgusting fat bastards that they are.

    Skiiers bring skiing accidents on themselves. Kids who run in the road in front of cars bring injury on themselves. Shall we not treat them too? If you think we should treat them, they why is it different for them?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This isn't about self-inflicted disease. It's about effective resource allocation in a resource limited system.

    Is NHS funding unlimited?

    ps George Best was a private patient, and there is no suggestion that anyone in his position would be denied treatment on the NHS.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    This isn't about self-inflicted disease. It's about effective resource allocation in a resource limited system.

    Is NHS funding unlimited?

    It isn't unlimited.

    But it's odd how they target some vilified group and consign them to a life of abject and chronic pain. Instead of, for instance, not paying GPs a tenner a go to jab a needle in an old person.
    there is no suggestion that anyone in his position would be denied treatment on the NHS.

    That is the point.

    He's an alcoholic, no sign of recovery, brought on himself. He would be a waste of money if paid for by the NHS. So why isn't his treatment cut off?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    It isn't unlimited.

    But it's odd how they target some vilified group and consign them to a life of abject and chronic pain.
    They're given the option of losing weight, presumably, which may ease their symptoms enough to avoid having an operation at all. Is weight loss not a valid medical treatment? Is surgery the cure for joint damage caused by being overweight? Who is most qualified to answer that question - you, the patient, the surgeon or a government minister?
    Instead of, for instance, not paying GPs a tenner a go to jab a needle in an old person.
    :confused: What's that got to do with it? Are flu jabs not a worthwhile investment now?
    That is the point.

    He's an alcoholic, no sign of recovery, brought on himself. He would be a waste of money if paid for by the NHS. So why isn't his treatment cut off?
    Because the NHS currently makes no value judgement on an individual life or lifestyle.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    They're given the option of losing weight, presumably, which may ease their symptoms enough to avoid having an operation at all. Is weight loss not a valid medical treatment?

    How can they do enough exercise to lose weight with a dodgy hip or knee?

    Oh, they can't
    Who is most qualified to answer that question - you, the patient, the surgeon or a government minister?

    Well, its the managers that have made this decision.
    :confused: What's that got to do with it? Are flu jabs not a worthwhile investment now?

    Of course they are.

    But they don't cost a GP a tenner to administer.
    Because the NHS currently makes no value judgement on an individual life or lifestyle.

    Except it does. If you're fat you won't get treatment.

    So what is the difference between treating an alcoholic and not treating a person with a high BMI?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    How can they do enough exercise to lose weight with a dodgy hip or knee?

    Oh, they can't
    Can they lose weight in other ways do you think?
    Well, its the managers that have made this decision.
    No decision is made in isolation. If this is to do with budgets, the most obvious target for cuts is a service that costs a lot, is likely to result in complications and that can be avoided with other measures. It's not rocket science, Kerm.
    Of course they are.

    But they don't cost a GP a tenner to administer.
    Says who?
    Except it does. If you're fat you won't get treatment.

    So what is the difference between treating an alcoholic and not treating a person with a high BMI?
    The cause of the high BMI is not part of the equation. Someone who got fat from taking oral steroid drugs are not distinguished from those who eat too much.

    And anyway an alcoholic would be denied a liver transplant on the NHS if they were still drinking.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    Well, its the managers that have made this decision.

    Whilst I don't believe this decision is one that I would have taken, you have to look at it in the whole. The decision isn't taken because they don't want to treat fat people. It's taken because they can argue that the benefits of this operation are reduced because the joint will not last as long as it would for others.

    Now compare a limited outcome with investing the same money in, say, more out of hours support for people with long term chronic decisions (which will reduce the number of people needing admission to hospital) and it becomes a different argument.
    But they don't cost a GP a tenner to administer.

    You're right, it doesn't. For compariosn when we need a nurse to vaccinate housebound patients it costs us £12.50 each...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    The cause of the high BMI is not part of the equation.

    But the cause of the knee/hip problem may be... vicious circle etc...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    it starts ...
    sounds kinda scary that bit as if your expecting next ...fat people banned from trains ...fat people not allowed out till dark.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    it starts ...
    sounds kinda scary that bit as if your expecting next ...fat people banned from trains ...fat people not allowed out till dark.

    :lol: no what I meant was the start of healthcare privatisation (well actually that started a while ago), and the downsizing of the NHS.......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    apollo_69 wrote:
    :lol: the downsizing of the NHS.......
    nothing to do with the downsizing of fat people at all then!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    that's it - i'm on a diet
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