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They Behead Schoolgirls

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  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Regrettably. Although nobody realistically expects Israel to withdraw from all of the Disputed Territories as doing so would deny Israel its right to secure borders.

    You talk some shite. So we could invade France, and say "Oh, it is a security mesure to stop France using it's coast to attack us".

    On second thoughts... good idea.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I know what it is...And I know that it's been declared illegal by the Israeli Supreme Court which displays the accountability of the IDF. Such a ruling could only happen in a liberal democracy.

    And yet for years that very same "liberal democracy" (SIC) has been using civilians as human shields. If its good enough for a liberal democracy why are you so outraged that Palestinian militants operate near civilians. Its not exactly as if the "liberal democracy" (SIC) that illegally occupies their land gives them a choice, or freedom of movement, is it?


    Regrettably. Although nobody realistically expects Israel to withdraw from all of the Disputed Territories as doing so would deny Israel its right to secure borders. I do still think as part of an eventual peace settlement if the Palestinians make sufficient concessions Israel will withdraw from most of the West Bank as it offered to in 2000. Personally like I supported the withdrawal from Gaza I hope Israel withdraws from most of the West Bank - providing that at least the status quo is maintained with Jerusalem.

    What about the Palestinian right to "secure borders"? Or are they not quite as human as the Israelis?

    You supported Gaza being turned into the worlds largest open air prison?

    My hero!

    [puking smiley]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the power of words ...powerful enough to move men and nations.

    the words in this thread that got me ...'the road to peace' ...
    the plan ...how any of you even remotely inteligent people can have swallowed that one liner ...against the actual realities would be amusing if it wasn't so scary.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'd just like to know how you can "accidentally" shoot someone inside a building with the UN flag- you know, the symbol for mediation and neutrality- on the top of it.

    Some flukey shot that must have been.

    Good to see Disillusioned didn't condemn it though. At least some people can be relied on for their hypocrisy.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What are these "Disputed" Territories you speak of Disillusioned? :confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh and Disillusioned, I've been saving this story for you. Rembember all your claims that "Israeli soldiers don't murder Palestinians or shoot unarmed people on purpose" blah blah blah?

    Well...

    IDF soldiers: 'We were given orders to murder unarmed Palestinians- and did so'

    Happy reading! :wave:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Israeli military prosecutors have opened criminal investigations following allegations by soldiers that they carried out illegal shoot-to-kill orders against unarmed Palestinians.

    The first paragraph shows that people are held to account, which I think is Disillusioned's point.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not quite, unfortunately. Independent witness accounts, charities, even the Red Cross have been reporting the muders of unarmed civilians for many many years. It is certainly good that somebody is going to be prosecuted. But make no mistake: those 17 investigations are but the very tip of the iceberg.

    702 Palestinian children killed by the Israelis since 2000

    Now, how many of those 702 killings do you reckon were justified/lawful, and how many were cold-blooded murders?

    (Answer 0/702).

    So well done on the 17 "investigations". Just 685 more to go. As far as children are concerned anyway... :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Oh and Disillusioned, I've been saving this story for you. Rembember all your claims that "Israeli soldiers don't murder Palestinians or shoot unarmed people on purpose" blah blah blah?

    The alleged incidents described in the report you cite are disturbing and regrettable. Although as the Guardian article highlights "Israeli military prosecutors have opened criminal investigations". While this doesn't exonerate Israel of these wrongdoings it displays their desire to address them.

    I would maintain that the IDF does not have a general policy of targeting innocent people. I don’t think senior officials in the IDF or within the Israeli government order IDF soldiers on the ground to deliberately kill innocent people. I am sure this will be verified in the future when historians gain access to government/military documents.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If the IDF hasn't got a policy of targetting innocent people, how do you explain the senseless deaths of at least 702 children (nevermind adults) in the last 5 years?

    And before you answer that, please consider:

    a) that website is not biased and it is simply devoted to remember children from both sides who have been killed (so no insinuations that it has all been made up please)

    b) as you will see in the immense majority of cases the "there were gunmen hiding behind them" excuse often given doesn't wash. In fact in many cases it doesn't appear to be any reason whatsoever for the bullets/shells/missiles that killed all those children to have been fired in the first place. Unless of course the reason for firing was to target them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    If the IDF hasn't got a policy of targetting innocent people, how do you explain the senseless deaths of at least 702 children (nevermind adults) in the last 5 years?

    There is no proof that the IDF has a general policy of targeting innocent children or any other innocent people for that matter.

    Of course clearly there have been regrettable instances where the IDF has killed innocent people.

    In some of these cases it’s down to an individual IDF solider guilty of a bad reaction and/or abuse. In these cases their commanding officer could be to blame too for things going wrong on the ground.

    In other cases the tragedy could simply be the result of someone being in the wrong place at the wrong time; caught in between Palestinian gunmen and the IDF. And in some cases yes Palestinian militants hiding behind innocent civilians.

    I don’t believe there’s any Israeli master-plan to murder innocent Palestinians and I haven't seen any credible proof of one.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There isn't a master-plan as such: what there is is hundreds of unlawful killings by soldiers either instigated by their superior officers or committed on their own accord.

    Some people might say one unlawful killing is one too many. I'd say several hundreds are certainly far too many, even if there is no 'master-plan'. Such killings are far from isolated cases.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    There isn't a master-plan as such: what there is is hundreds of unlawful killings by soldiers either instigated by their superior officers or committed on their own accord.

    Some people might say one unlawful killing is one too many. I'd say several hundreds are certainly far too many, even if there is no 'master-plan'. Such killings are far from isolated cases.

    I don’t dispute the existence of a worrying pattern. Although that Palestinian militants are fighting a war against the IDF gives some explanation.

    The sooner a final peace settlement is reached that involves the creation of a Palestinian state and Israel pulling out of most of the Disputed Territories the better. It's unfortunate that there is not somebody more effective in the White House who could put the necessary pressure on both sides to hasten such a deal.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    I don’t dispute the existence of a worrying pattern. Although that Palestinian militants are fighting a war against the IDF gives some explanation.

    Because killing civilians stops terrorism... :rolleyes: How about NOT killing the civilians, as every time you do that, you increase support for the terrorists.
    The sooner a final peace settlement is reached that involves the creation of a Palestinian state and Israel pulling out of most of the Disputed Territories the better. It's unfortunate that there is not somebody more effective in the White House who could put the necessary pressure on both sides to hasten such a deal.

    Yes. ALOT of pressure on Sharron to stop breaking the things. He seems to think a peace deal, involves him keeping the settlements and still being able to order the deaths of people. Someone should give this guy a dictionary, on the page with "Peace".
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    Because killing civilians stops terrorism... :rolleyes: How about NOT killing the civilians, as every time you do that, you increase support for the terrorists.

    Unfortunately things are nowhere near as black and white as you perceive. The number of innocent civilians on both sides has increased vastly since the second infidata; simply put innocent civilians have died as a result of Palestinian militants war against Israel. This is fact.

    That you then interpret me stating this fact as suggesting that killing civilians stops terrorism is either another sign of you resorting to making things up or a display of your inability to absorb quite basic facts.
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    Yes. ALOT of pressure on Sharron to stop breaking the things. He seems to think a peace deal, involves him keeping the settlements and still being able to order the deaths of people. Someone should give this guy a dictionary, on the page with "Peace".

    I’d be intrigued to hear what reading your opinions on Israel/Palestine are based on. I’m also puzzled that you seem to think Sharon believes a peace deal involves Israel keeping the settlements – the withdrawal from Gaza suggests quite the contrary. He has also stated that Israel will need to make compromises in the West Bank.

    I would prefer the Israeli Labour party to be in power but Sharon deserves credit and he's made compromises a Labour PM would have found it harder to achieve. If the Palestinians successfully curb terrorism and Hamas disarm Sharon will make further concessions.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I’d be intrigued to hear what reading your opinions on Israel/Palestine are based on. I’m also puzzled that you seem to think Sharon believes a peace deal involves Israel keeping the settlements – the withdrawal from Gaza suggests quite the contrary. He has also stated that Israel will need to make compromises in the West Bank.

    Mine are based mainly on what I read in the Israeli media. You're pretending that Dov Weisglass never let the cat out of the bag, are you not?

    :yuck:
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Unfortunately things are nowhere near as black and white as you perceive. The number of innocent civilians on both sides has increased vastly since the second infidata; simply put innocent civilians have died as a result of Palestinian militants war against Israel. This is fact.

    That you then interpret me stating this fact as suggesting that killing civilians stops terrorism is either another sign of you resorting to making things up or a display of your inability to absorb quite basic facts.

    You are saying that because one side does it, it is fine for the other too? So it would have been OK for both sides in WW2 to gas Jews? It's not saying much different, is it now?

    I know the Palestinians target civilians. It is the nature of Terrorism. This is NOT an excuse for Israel to do the same. Once you lower yourself to your enemies standard... all defensive ground is truely lost. Doesn't help that Israel is in the wrond anyway for Illegal Occupation. But the UN likes to ignore that muchly, as with the Arms sales to China.

    Also, the Israeli's have been far more effective at killing Civilians than the Palestinian Militants. This is probably something to do with the fact one has the latest US arms, the other has out-of-date technology, and suicide tactics. I daresay I could now be locked up for condoning Terrorism. But the fact is, Israel has repeatadley failed to honour peace agreements. This does put them in the wrong. When a cease fire is agreed, it's not good continuing fighting and expecting the other side to do nothing.

    Perhaps soon the Israeli people can elect a better leader? We can but hope.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    I know the Palestinians target civilians. It is the nature of Terrorism. This is NOT an excuse for Israel to do the same. Once you lower yourself to your enemies standard... all defensive ground is truely lost.

    Yet people seem happy to "justify" why the Palestinians will do it, but not the Israelis.

    I actually agree with this point, but you should apply it equally.

    Especially when you say:
    But the fact is, Israel has repeatadley failed to honour peace agreements. This does put them in the wrong. When a cease fire is agreed, it's not good continuing fighting and expecting the other side to do nothing.

    Be fair there have been failure on both sides in this instance too.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But only one side is in the wrong in historical context.

    Only one side is oppressing the other.

    Only one side is illegally occupying the other.

    Only one side is subjecting the other to a long-sustained campaign of abuse that has resulted in appalling hardships for an entire people.

    That's not to say the killing of innocent Israelis should be condoned. Any killing is abominable. But one side is infinitely more at fault than the other. The suggestion, as some people make, that "they're as bad as each other" is simply wrong.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I find it surprising (as well as very disturbing) that people are unable to distinguish between some Christian teenage girls being beheaded simply for being Christian and a 55 year old murdering rapist being executed in Texas. Whatever the rights or wrongs of the death penalty in America it is used for first degree murder; people don't get executed because they're of a minority religion.
    I had the impression, from what The Mat had typed, that this was an Islamic government executing sixteen year old girls. It wasn't. So there is no comparison, but there isn't much of a story, either. Some thugs committed a criminal act, and will hopefully be caught and charged for it. I doubt they will get away with a religious defence.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    However, I'd like the OP to expand on what he means by "fight back and defend our civilization".

    Im sure you can work out what it means.

    We are often asked not to judge other cultures and other religions, and, in general, it seems to me a wise presumption. We often misunderstand what we do not know; and tolerance is a good thing. But then there are lines where culture really does matter; and where social and cultural norms in other places really do strike us in the West as profoundly wrong.

    Things like involuntary female genital mutilation; or the hanging of teen-age gays; or infanticide; or the barbarism shown in my original post.

    Apologising for things like this will not get us anywhere. We must make it clear to countries where these things happen (I have Iran in mind particularly) that they are not tolerated.

    And for the record - I dont support the death penalty, in the US or anywhere else.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do you think that those who beheaded the girls are representative of any culture, country or religion though?

    That's a bit like saying 'Fred West was a Christian and he enjoyed raping, torturing and killing his own daughters. Therefore all Christians do.'
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    (I have Iran in mind particularly)

    You, Blair and Bush have this in common.

    IN their case they say its cos the naughty Iranians are going to get WMDs (sort of like the ones their little buddy Israel has) but for you its human rights.

    So, why not Saudi Arabia? Or Indonesia, as in your original post?

    Is it cos you is a muppet of the New World Order?

    We should be told.......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Indeed.

    You could add Pinochet to that list.

    Oh hold on... Pinochet was fighting 'commies'... therefore we can safely ignore the women he had raped by trained dogs, or the thousands of others he tortured, killed and threw into shallow graves.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So, why not Saudi Arabia? Or Indonesia, as in your original post?

    .
    Things like involuntary female genital mutilation; or the hanging of teen-age gays; or infanticide; or the barbarism shown in my original post.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What is your solution to this horrid torture then Mat?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    They chop heads in Saudi Arabia for little reason at all. That's okay with you is it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What is your solution to this horrid torture then Mat?

    More aggressive prosecution of regimes which condone this type of behaviour and seek to export it in the international arena.
    They chop heads in Saudi Arabia for little reason at all. That's okay with you is it?

    No, but I would imagine you would be pretty comfortable with it, being a defender of the status quo and 'stability' in the middle east.

    Confrontation is a good thing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    But only one side is in the wrong in historical context.

    It is? I think you might want to read a little more history. You will find that there are several nations/groups who need to hang their heads in shame rather than wringing their hands.
    Only one side is oppressing the other.

    Perspective is interesting isn't it?

    I'd add that terrorists are also oppressive by their very nature and perhaps we should also look at how the arab nations treated (and continue to treat) the Palestinians.
    But one side is infinitely more at fault than the other...

    The suggestion, as some people make, that "they're as bad as each other" is simply wrong.

    Again, perspective.

    Here's an concept for the Palestinians which I am not sure they have tried. Stop bombing Israelis and they will have no defence for killing you, thus world opinion (including that of the USA) will support you and action will be taken.

    By the same token, if Israel pulled out of the West Bank & Gaza and terrorism continues then it would be hard for people to "justify" what is happening. That said there are some, for whom the very existence of Israel is justification.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    being a defender of the status quo and 'stability' in the middle east.

    Confrontation is a good thing.

    Great, so you also believe Israel is a complete mess and we should confront them directly.
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