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man accidentally shot dead had expired visa

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
story

is it just me, or are other people thinking....'so?'

up until today, the home office 'declined to comment' on his immigration status. today they've suddenly decided he was here illegally. dodgy?

i hope they're not trying to suggest that that justifies his death.

discuss.
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Heard it on radio four just as I got out of the car, I thought "and that makes it ok, does it?"
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    of course it does :rolleyes:

    havnt you learned anything? The government know best!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ah yes, I'd forgotten. Thanks for reminding me.

    Oh wait, the rollingeyes smiley, are you not being wholey serious?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ahhh nice.

    Now we all need ID cards.

    It's a horrible, shitty thing to do. Basically the attitude is "he was guilty of something" which of course makes it ok for some flat foot to decapitate him.

    Also, they haven't said he was here illegally. Read it closely.

    They said that the stamp wasn't in use on that date. For all we know someone fucked up in the passport office and used the wrong one. Or perhaps they are just lying flat out.
    "On investigation, this stamp was not one that was in use by the Immigration and Nationality Directorate on the date given."
  • SkiveSkive Posts: 15,282 Skive's The Limit
    klintock wrote:
    Basically the attitude is "he was guilty of something" which of course makes it ok for some flat foot to decapitate him.

    Bollocks. Can you point out where anybody in the police force has suggested anything of the sort?

    All this does is shed some light on why he may have ran when challenged by the poilce.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't think it was intended to justify the incident in anyway. I think it was just clearing up the immigration status.

    I don't see how it makes a difference really but if I'm being cynical I suspect it may soften some of the more close minded people of the public's views on this situation.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And if they'd decided to keep it secret you bet they'd have been accussed off covering it up.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I suppose it sheds light as to why he made the stupidest choice of his life - running away from police into a tube station after what happened.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    they are just saying that to state why he ran. If u had an expired visa and bunch of police blokes with guns wer like raaah u'd leg it.
  • SkiveSkive Posts: 15,282 Skive's The Limit
    Jonny8888 wrote:
    If u had an expired visa and bunch of police blokes with guns wer like raaah u'd leg it.

    I wouldn't run from anybody with a gun shouting 'Stop or I'll shoot', whether it was the police or a mugger or whoever.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    eveb if i meant going back to shitty country u spend so much time and effort trying to escape?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You are presuming the police excuse that they even said anything to him is remotely honest. How much abuse of power and authority has to be shown to the public before any such excusatory claims are viewed far more likely as merely further lies?

    If he was late for work, he could just as easily have been running to catch the train and merely been chased down (i.e. stalked) by authorities just looking for a likely target to test out the extent of their new unrestrained license to kill.

    They haven't lost much sleep over it, daring to downplay wanton homocide as "a tragedy". More's the tragedy that the public is unified in outright condemnation of such sanctimonious terminology.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Erm.. the via thng was raised last week. Today was "confirmation" (contrary to Jack Straw's comments at the weekend)...

    It really isn't relevant to the point that the man was executed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote:
    I wouldn't run from anybody with a gun shouting 'Stop or I'll shoot', whether it was the police or a mugger or whoever.

    I'd probably run from a mugger. But not from armed police - where is there to run, afterall. They'd have just picked him up at the next station.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    at the end of the day, they screwed up, n we lal bitchin about it, but if he had of been a suicide bomber, we'd all be here bitchin about how they didnt shoot him. (if they chose not to, if u get what i men)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jonny - if is a very big word in that context.

    He wasn't. Get over it.

    The police killed an innocent man. He wasn't a threat to anyone, but they shot him anyway. I understand the excuses being given but they just aren't good enough, if you are going to take a life then you need to be damned sure that you are good reason to and the information we have says that they just didn't have it...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jonny8888 wrote:
    at the end of the day, they screwed up, n we lal bitchin about it, but if he had of been a suicide bomber, we'd all be here bitchin about how they didnt shoot him. (if they chose not to, if u get what i men)

    but if the police had proper intelligence they'd know if he was a suicide bomber or not
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You are presuming the police excuse that they even said anything to him is remotely honest. How much abuse of power and authority has to be shown to the public before any such excusatory claims are viewed far more likely as merely further lies?

    If he was late for work, he could just as easily have been running to catch the train and merely been chased down (i.e. stalked) by authorities just looking for a likely target to test out the extent of their new unrestrained license to kill.

    They haven't lost much sleep over it, daring to downplay wanton homocide as "a tragedy". More's the tragedy that the public is unified in outright condemnation of such sanctimonious terminology.

    no he started running when police challenged him
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jonny - if is a very big word in that context.

    He wasn't. Get over it.

    The police killed an innocent man. He wasn't a threat to anyone, but they shot him anyway. I understand the excuses being given but they just aren't good enough, if you are going to take a life then you need to be damned sure that you are good reason to and the information we have says that they just didn't have it...
    It would be a very different story if they'd shot him and he'd been strabbed up with explosives, or even better, they hadn't shot him and he'd taken out the tube. It can't be forgotten, that not only was he very very stupid to run from armed police, but that running from armed police while London is on high alert after two (attempted) suicide attacks he's going to make himself look like a guilty bomber and he's going to get shot especially if he heads to an area that would ordinarily be a target. I said this to kermit, but the police aren't supermen, they do make mistakes, obviously, but I don't think this one was particularly unreasonable considering the circumstances.

    Yes I know I'm being emotionally detached, but that helps a lot when something like this needs to be observed impartially. It must be admitted that if this guy had been a bomber this conversation would be going very differently, and also that his behaviour was not conducive to him getting away alive.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If he had of been a bomber we'd have been fucked as the police let him get on the bus and when he ran to the tube he could have detonated.
  • SkiveSkive Posts: 15,282 Skive's The Limit
    I'd probably run from a mugger. But not from armed police - where is there to run, afterall. They'd have just picked him up at the next station.

    If somebody point a gun at you and tell you to stop or they'll shoot you'd have to be pretty stupid to run whoever they are.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If he had turned out to be a muslim, I reckon that he would have been painted as having some kind of "direct links" to the bombings anyway - the police certainly have fabricated a few things in their account so far.

    However, he was so far from the profile of a potential bomber, that it has become the theatre of the absurd.

    This nonsense about "imagine if he really was a bomber" doesn't wash at all - how can anyone find consolation in the fact that armed police are running around getting it so wrong? How can anyone even start to believe that the poilcie are protecting us? They didn't stop the bombings on July 7th. All 4 alleged bombers got away on 21st July, and afaik at least 3 of the suspects are still at large.

    And we have a dead Brazilian (who people call stupid even though there was no precedent for him to follow - the stupidity was in the surveillance team and the hit squad, no?) why the hell would a Catholic Brazilian think that he was in the frame for being a suicide bomber - he had no reason to suspect that he was in the frame for anything - (his visa stamp was good enough to fool Jack Straw if you think about it) - he wasn't wearing a thick jacket - he didn't vault the turnstile - he went in with his Oyster card - that means he had to stop and wait for the gate to open...........

    Stop blaming him and have a look at those who killed him - because their "operation" was a farce .................................
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If somebody point a gun at you and tell you to stop or they'll shoot you'd have to be pretty stupid to run whoever they are.

    I can't see this being a rational decision really. It's going to be one of those fight or flight moments. He chose flight, they chose fight. He's dead they are on holiday. :sour:

    FTP raises a very good point. If his visa was good enough to need nearly a weeks worth of checking to find out it had the wrong stamp, he was as safe as houses as far as that went.
    How can anyone even start to believe that the poilcie are protecting us? They didn't stop the bombings on July 7th. All 4 alleged bombers got away on 21st July, and afaik at least 3 of the suspects are still at large.

    They are not there to protect you. If they were you could take them to court if and when they get it wrong. You can't, you have no comeback, so there is no protection. Interestingly this put legal assertions that you are a citizen in jeopardy -

    http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/stevens/stevens4.html

    A citizen is someone who owes an allegience in return for protection. No protection - no allegience - no citizens. An "illegal alien" is someone who gets no protection and so owes no allegience and can be removed from the area.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    no he started running when police challenged him

    Ah, so you are an eye witness to events from the moment he left for work are you?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote:
    I wouldn't run from anybody with a gun shouting 'Stop or I'll shoot', whether it was the police or a mugger or whoever.
    I would... The police weren't in uniform were they?

    So technically it could have been anybody chasing him saying they're the police.

    And whether his Visa has expired or not doesn't take away the fact that a human life has been taken away (in public).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    and he wrent shot by 'accident' he was shot by purpose until they later realised he done nothing to 'deserve it'
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Again, or not saying a damn thing until they hit the platform and shouted for everyone to get down and simply opened fire. The authorities, especially police services the world over, are notorious for post-gaff self-justifying accounts of what was or was not said and done.

    It simply gets regurgitated by the press/media, given some public outlets to vent concern, handed a routine "the situation is under investigation", and ultimately buried by the next sensationalist diversion.

    If any action is truly needed, some low level patsy can be found to bear all the blame and have his/her life ruined to mollify the sheep. Business as usual in the echelons of power.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The whole thing is looking dodgier and dodgier by the minute I must say. There have been reports of witnesses' accounts that challenge the official story. According to such reports he was not wearing ''a thick winter coat'' but a denim jacket, and he did not ''jump over the barrier'' but used his ticket to get through.

    It wouldn't be the first one the old bill does a major fuck up and makes up a story to cover their arses...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jonny8888 wrote:
    at the end of the day, they screwed up, n we lal bitchin about it, but if he had of been a suicide bomber, we'd all be here bitchin about how they didnt shoot him. (if they chose not to, if u get what i men)

    How about they establish some proper procedures for staking out flats and following the right person?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How about they establish some proper procedures for staking out flats and following the right person?

    thay have them already.

    it goes - spot potential terorist - let him wander around, under watch (at a safe distance) until an armed unit can come and shoot him dead with minimal casualties to the rozzers.

    I am not even joking. :impissed:
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