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Gays

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    satehen wrote:
    But if homosexuality wasn't a result of evolution then why are mens g-spots located near their prostrate?

    Even if that was an evolutionary trait, explain to me what it would evolve so. Would men who enjoyed gay sex be more likely to breed and produce offspring with this g spot gene? Or would they be less likely to be clubbed to death.

    My opinion on the matter is that homosexuality is mainly determined by someones upbringing and their choice. It may be a fact that they are influenced by their genetics but Ibeleive someone with 'gay' genetics can live out a heterosexual life and someone with 'straight' genetics can live out a homosexual life.

    From an evolutionary point of view, homosexuality is a corruption of the gene pool in that it's a gene that weakens the genome (in evolutionary terms, if we're less likely to have kids, we're more likely to die out) so it dies out, because there are less gay people have children than straight people. This is why I also believe it's mainly down to someone's identity and not their genes because otherwise gay genes would be seriously rare, where I think 1 in 50 people is gay or something similar.

    I'm not saying or implying that gay people are bad by the way, for those easily offended. Just saying that from a survivalistic evolutionary point of view they have no purpose; humans aren't designed to be gay and so we don't have genes that make us gay.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    On this topic..

    why do a majority of gay men exhibit feminine characteristics.. is this because they must fit in with the "gay crowd" or is it a result of their upbringing... i.e. having mainly female friends..??
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    satehen wrote:
    But if homosexuality wasn't a result of evolution then why are mens g-spots located near their prostrate?
    The prostate is a sex gland.

    Some people like their ear lobes being played with. What point are you trying to make?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Panthro wrote:
    On this topic..

    why do a majority of gay men exhibit feminine characteristics.. is this because they must fit in with the "gay crowd" or is it a result of their upbringing... i.e. having mainly female friends..??
    The gay scene imo is very superficial, so it'll be the first question.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I have seen many posters on these boards making the claim that being gay isnt a choice, but theyve never come up with evidence to back up their claims.

    I am gay, and I never made a choice to be. Nor did any gay person I know. Is that 'proof' enough for you? :rolleyes:

    The whole 'choice' argument is illogical from start to finish anyway. Who the fuck would choose to make themselves part of a minority that still suffers discrimination, prejudice and occasional violence? No-one!

    Gay people have always existed, and always will. Even in societies that have done/do eveyrthing possible to repress homosexuality, they still exist. The cultural presence of homosexuality is constant. To me, that suggests that it's a natural variation in the species - a biologically unproductive one, maybe, but a variation no more harmful than left-handedness or having red hair.

    No-one knows what causes homosexuality. There is some evidence for a gay gene - and this is where the siblings argumnet comes in. Statistically, I believe that a gay person is more likely to have gay siblings, but that proves nothing because it could be down to upbringing. What is interesting is that studies of twins separated at birth are quite likely to be of the same sexual orientation, even if they've been brought up in entirely different circumstances. On the other hand, homosexuality could be psychological - although frankly most of the psychological explanations I've seen are a load of cod-freudian pschyobabble. No-one knows. Personally, I think there's probably a genetic predisposition in some people, that societal factors activate. But that's just my belief. I do think the 'causes' of homosexuality will vary form person to person anyway.

    As for gay men being effeminate, some of the most effeminate men I've ever known have been straight, and some of the least effeminate gay. Less of the bollocks stereotypes from some people, please.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    None of that is evidence, just opinion.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    None of that is evidence, just opinion.

    What's this then?
    There is some evidence for a gay gene - and this is where the siblings argumnet comes in. Statistically, I believe that a gay person is more likely to have gay siblings, but that proves nothing because it could be down to upbringing. What is interesting is that studies of twins separated at birth are quite likely to be of the same sexual orientation, even if they've been brought up in entirely different circumstances.

    But then, your post was all opinion, as will most posts be on a discussion forum.

    Do you still think sexuality is a choice? If you insist that my sexuality is an outcome of choice, are you trying to tell me that you know me better than I do?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I am sure that most of you have heard of a condition called hermaphroditism (or the more politically correct term these days is 'intersex') where a person is born with the fully formed genatalia of BOTH sexes. The subject, apart from their genatalia, is physically and mentally sound in every other way.

    Sometimes, these children are operated on at birth if the doctors decide (guess) that the baby appears to have a female or male inclination and the genitals are modified accordingly. In many cases though, a modified 'girl' grows up with feelings for other women and modified 'boys' grow up feeling something for other men. It seems in these cases, the doctors have made the wrong decision and the psychological makeup of the child was in fact the opposite to the physical modification they performed on the child. So even though, for instance, a child may be brought up as a girl with girls toys etc, the 'nature' side of the brain kicks in at puberty (if not before) and overrides the 'nurture' side.

    Now, if nature can produce a visible, physical example of developmental confusion on the outside of the human body, who is to say that there are not processes at work of developmental confusion going on inside the unseen brain of a person ... where there may not be an obvious physical example of gender disorientation externally but internally their brain does not dictate in the way that their external body would suggest to the rest of society.

    There is very strong evidence that sexuality is largely determined by development in the womb. Perhaps, while 'intersex' is firm external physical proof of developmental issues, we ought to consider that perhaps the developmental differences in gay people are more subtle and obviously invisible to the naked eye due to the brain being internal - but that does not mean that the differences are not there.

    Homosexuality has been around since the beginning of time and if you research gay history in cultures across the world, the present prejudices seem to stem with the spread of Judaeo-Christian religon and it is this prejudice that is ingrained into the psyche of people today. But like racism, for instance, perhaps this prejudice towards gay people will diminish as society recognises that alternative sexuality is actually just a normal part of nature's rich diversity.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well said. :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, but then I didnt make that claim.

    I have seen many posters on these boards making the claim that being gay isnt a choice, but theyve never come up with evidence to back up their claims.

    Talk to some gay people.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Panthro wrote:
    On this topic..

    why do a majority of gay men exhibit feminine characteristics.. is this because they must fit in with the "gay crowd" or is it a result of their upbringing... i.e. having mainly female friends..??

    I dont think they do, its just the ones who are camp stand out more than the ones who seem straight.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Talk to some gay people.

    Nah, he might catch gay off them. It's air-borne like TB, you know. ;)

    :banghead:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ibex wrote:
    I am gay, and I never made a choice to be. Nor did any gay person I know. Is that 'proof' enough for you? :rolleyes:

    It's an unfortunate fact that that's not really proof at all. It's as substantial as me saying "I am gay, and I chose to be, and so did every gay person I know". Whereas I am not actually gay :p (i'm not accusing you of lying, by the way). This site, especially in politics and debate, has had a big thing with evidence. You can't run a debate on people's personal experiences if you're trying to prove something.

    Though I agree with your standing point in a way but I'm marginally shifted towards choice - I think that people ultimately decide through their life experience but their genes may influence them a little bit.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I have seen many posters on these boards making the claim that being gay isnt a choice, but theyve never come up with evidence to back up their claims.
    And I have seen you making the claim that there is a God but have never seen you (or anyone else, in the entire world, ever) come up with any evidence whatsoever to back up such claims.

    Homosexuality isn't a choice. I find most of the people who claim the opposite do so for rather disturbed and unpleasant reasons...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Though I agree with your standing point in a way but I'm marginally shifted towards choice - I think that people ultimately decide through their life experience but their genes may influence them a little bit.

    So what are your views on my post above then?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I know it isn't proof theshyboyinthecorner, but ffs, you'd think that if someone's interested in what makes people gay, then the first thing they'd do would be to ask someone who is.

    I am, and I'm stating unequivocally that I made no 'choice.' I'd be very surprised if you found many gay people who would say differently. Now, of course that isn't proof, but it is evidence.

    Besides, as I said in my first post, the whole 'choice' argument is illogical from the beginning.

    Did you make a conscious choice to be straight?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ibex wrote:
    I am, and I'm stating unequivocally that I made no 'choice.' I'd be very surprised if you found many gay people who would say differently. Now, of course that isn't proof, but it is evidence.
    What evidence can you provide that proves you had "no choice"?
    Besides, as I said in my first post, the whole 'choice' argument is illogical from the beginning.
    Why? There are many instances of young impressionable men who "experiment" with homosexuality only to turn fairly quickly into fully paid-up members of "straight-dom" - Michael Portillo is one recent example, who confessed to a queer dalliance in his youth but went on to marry. There is much confusion over sexuality in ones' ten years and perhaps a few who get caught up in relationships with older more determined queers find it harder to break out of this unnatural state? Just a thought.
    Did you make a conscious choice to be straight?
    No, because I didn't have to, Nature turned me out as she had intended, straight.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :yeees: I wondered how long it'd be before you'd start trolling this thread.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    :yeees: I wondered how long it'd be before you'd start trolling this thread.
    You're out of touch fiend, I'm no troll, as proved by the poll.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Panthro wrote:
    On this topic..

    why do a majority of gay men exhibit feminine characteristics.. is this because they must fit in with the "gay crowd" or is it a result of their upbringing... i.e. having mainly female friends..??


    It's superficial. The gay scene is. A lot of gay people think it's cool to act quite feminine and be bitchy...God knows why.

    As for the question, I guess it could be either. I've had things happen to me throughout my life that could have made me the way I am, but then again I've felt attracted towards women as long as I remember so it could be genetic. Either way I am who I am and can't change, so that's that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I thought you'd be along very soon...
    Rich Kid wrote:
    What evidence can you provide that proves you had "no choice"?

    Experience, but if you think I'm about to go splashing my past all over this forum to try and make a point, you are mistaken. You'll have to take it on trust - from me and 99% of other gay people who know from their own experience that the 'choice' argument is spurious.
    Why? There are many instances of young impressionable men who "experiment" with homosexuality only to turn fairly quickly into fully paid-up members of "straight-dom" - Michael Portillo is one recent example, who confessed to a queer dalliance in his youth but went on to marry. There is much confusion over sexuality in ones' ten years and perhaps a few who get caught up in relationships with older more determined queers find it harder to break out of this unnatural state? Just a thought.

    You confuse being and doing. I could go off and have sex with a woman tomorrow - that wouldn't make me straight. I'm basically attracted to men: that's what sexual orientation is. I'm sure you'l try and deny that such a thing exists, but if that's the case, how do you explain the fact that you're (I presume) consistently attracted to women and not men, whereas I'm t'other way round and have been all my life?

    You're also stating the obvious. Plenty of people experiment with their sexuality when they're young: that desn't mean they have to live up to what they did as teenagers in later life.
    No, because I didn't have to, Nature turned me out as she had intended, straight.

    Well then, you've just admitted that sexuality isn't a choice. Glad we cleared that one up.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Rich Kid wrote:
    What evidence can you provide that proves you had "no choice"?

    If it was a choice I would have chosen to be straight. It certainly would have made things easier and I'd have been able to have children. It wasn't choice because if it would why would people choose to be a sometimes opressed minority for the sake of it?
    Ibex wrote:
    Well then, you've just admitted that sexuality isn't a choice. Glad we cleared that one up.

    Owned. Right you are.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The obvious question is, if it is a choice, why do some people choose it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote:
    So what are your views on my post above then?

    It's an interesting point, I'll admit it's a bit over my head the idea that it happens to us in the womb. Is that nature or nurture then? Because it may not necessarily be our genes... it's confused me a little bit.

    I definately agree that different sexualities are something that make society rich. I don't agree with the idea of people making their sexuality an issue though, it rubs me up the wrong way when I hear about people 'coming out' because at the end of the day you are what you are and I don't think being straight or gay really changes that at all, it just means who you fancy. Though I'm aware there is a gay subculture in many places so in that sense people may act differently if they're gay because they hang around with other people who act differently. But that's just a choice of who you hang out with, a gay person wouldn't have any problems at all working in an office 9 - 5 and going down the pub after work with his or her mates for a drink.

    I think I may have put what I meant across slightly wrong, in that I think people are influenced to the extent that it's not really a choice. Like, someone who really loves animals - they haven't 'chosen' to care for animals but it's not their genes either. And phobias too, you don't choose to be afraid of soemthing but it's not something that's predetermined. I think though sexuality has another twist in it in the sense of 'coming out'. People label themselves gay when they might be confused and then try to just be gay. Or people label themselves bisexual. Or straight. And so the feelings they've developed are potentially supressed because they've chosen a path, so to speak.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think there's a lot of truth in that last paragraph - especially the point that, at the end of the day, homo-, bi- and heterosexuality are just labels.

    I describe myself as gay because it best fits who I'm attracted to and what I do, but I do try and regard that as a working hypothesis rather than a rigid category.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It certainly would have made things easier and I'd have been able to have children.

    Another point, how do you come to terms that you're most likely not to have children (yes, I do know of adoption and surrogate mothers)?

    Btw, thanks to Teagan and ibex who put across the kind of points which I was seraching for :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    J wrote:
    Maybe it's because of all the oestrogen containing beer we drink, could be changing us that way I guess?

    I dont know if it is in beer, but alcohol can lead to female features in males, alcohol is hard to digest and you need testosterone to do it, therefore the more you drink on a constant basis the less you have. That is why some heavy drinkers develop breasts.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Rich Kid wrote:
    What evidence can you provide that proves you had "no choice"?.
    :rolleyes:

    Troll.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Rich Kid wrote:
    No, because I didn't have to, Nature turned me out as she had intended, straight.

    Are we seperating God and Nature here? Surely you're implying that God / Nature make mistakes if they intended everyone to be hetrosexual yet some of his creations "went wrong"?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    that's a simplistic view of "error" in creation. Just for the record.
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