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The Independent's 'Campaign For Democracy'

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Link to information and an online petition

What do you think?

Do think it will work?

I do beleive that electoral reform is needed, as our system is grossly unfair and there are so many wasted votes. Its about time that votes in 'safe seats' especially and everyother constituency were not wasted anymore. A persons vote should actually mean something.

I would like to see the campaign work, with at least some debate on the matter. However I can't see the government introducing a system of PR any time soo, unless it gets concerned it will badly lose the next election.
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Obviously if there's enough noise something will change. Blair has already had a rebellion warning, he can't risk another.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No PR please thanks.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    minimi38 wrote:
    No PR please thanks.

    Why?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not sure the current system is perfect, however I'm not sure a system under which Charlie Kennedy decides whether he'll be Chancellor in partnership with the Tories or Foreign Secretary under Labour, is preferable.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Because it is shit. I don't want to live under a petty government that just squabbles and has to appease idiots who want thier own way all the time.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    Not sure the current system is perfect, however I'm not sure a system under which Charlie Kennedy decides whether he'll be Chancellor in partnership with the Tories or Foreign Secretary under Labour, is preferable.
    Given the oversized majoritiy the government often gets I thought that would be exactly what the doctor would order...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm not against strong Government, where it can push things through. It prevents populism, if nothing else
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, its the Independent, do you seriously think anyone takes any notice of what it says?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, its the Independent, do you seriously think anyone takes any notice of what it says?

    16,000 letters have already been sent.

    Have you actually read any of it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    16,000? Thats it?

    Yes. Ive read it, and I must say its mostly utter drivel.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    16,000? Thats it?

    Yes. Ive read it, and I must say its mostly utter drivel.

    What do you mean 'thats it' The campaign has only been going for a few days, and considering the independent doesnt have that high a circulation.

    I presume you didnt read any of it then.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Renzo wrote:
    Link to information and an online petition

    What do you think?

    Do think it will work?

    I do beleive that electoral reform is needed, as our system is grossly unfair and there are so many wasted votes. Its about time that votes in 'safe seats' especially and everyother constituency were not wasted anymore. A persons vote should actually mean something.

    I would like to see the campaign work, with at least some debate on the matter. However I can't see the government introducing a system of PR any time soo, unless it gets concerned it will badly lose the next election.

    not everyone can their way fact, reading the letter to the independant provides the best arguments for and against reform

    with fptp, the party with more votes than the others, tends to get in still, and can carry out its manifesto

    with the many forms of PR, it proivde little hope to independants who ditch their parties, and often governments are decided after the votes are counted and totalled, and the resulting horse trading means you have no idea what part of manifestos will be kept to


    personally even with fptp, if everyone actually voted for who they wanted in, or not in, the overall votes would roughly represent the number of seats, people not doing so is a problem with the electorate and politics not the method of deciding representation, as im sure there an equal number of labour supporters and lib dem supporters and tory supporters etc who dont bother voting, to cancel out eachother

    on the whole no system is perfect, the system that public report proposed seemed alrite, alternative plus or something, as it doesnt allow closed party lists so its not only cronies or silent whip boys who get the PR seats
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What do you mean 'thats it' The campaign has only been going for a few days, and considering the independent doesnt have that high a circulation.

    It has a circulation of 250,000.

    COnsidering most of those are wishy washy liberal do-gooders, a figure of 16,000 is pathetic.
    I presume you didnt read any of it then.

    Of course Ive read it! I prefer not to be lectured by such twits as Johann Hari, or be fed pointless information about PR when reading a newspaper.

    The Guardian is a far superior newspaper, and those with left wing dispositions would be much better served by reading that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm happy with FPTP for electing MP's. I'm not sure about PR. Don't like the idea of weak governments/fragile coalitions. And it would be extremely unfair that under PR the LibDems would probably be permanently in power as Labour or Conservatives would need to enter a coalition with them to form a government. In Israel the PR system has produced some bizarre coalitions. As has happened in Israel before with PR you can get small, extreme parties that hold the balance of the power. In Israel some of the smaller parties have ended up with a disproportionate amount of influence because they have the power to break the coalition. A PR system could really change our political climate...Equivalents of the BNP in Europe have sometimes done worryingly well under PR type systems. The idea of Nick Griffin strolling up Downing Street to add to a coalition is chilling. Oh and coalition governments can end up getting bugger all done. And parties won't be able to carry out their manifesto as to form the coalition they'll no doubt have to go back on some of their promises.

    Leaving the House of Commons as it is and making the House of Lords fully elected by PR would seem an easier way to keep the ruling party in check.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    I dislike PR. Its a great theory but is flawed in Practice. See the failed coalitions? See Germany now, with the Social/Green thing?

    Im happy with FTPT for now, it saves getting bad coalitions then some nutter like Hitler coming along and getting in.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is probably the most boring campaign ever fought by a newspaper. I support their aim, but I think they need to make it more exciting. Some sort of stunt to get the attention of Westminster politicians... :chin:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There's no such thing as 'PR'. It's a catch all term for some very very different systems, all with their pros and cons.

    But I know that I want my vote to be meaningful, I want the people who purport to represent me to actually have to work for my vote (in my last constituency there was practically no need for anyone to campaign - the result was a foregone conclusion), and I want to think that, to some degree, the government reflects the will of the people.

    Whatever else can be said, people aren't happy with Labour - and you can see that in the voting figures - only something like 38% voted for them? Go figure!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote:
    This is probably the most boring campaign ever fought by a newspaper. I support their aim, but I think they need to make it more exciting. Some sort of stunt to get the attention of Westminster politicians... :chin:

    All hail the voter of the future, if it hasnt a gimick and a wierd stunt then its not political.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's a long time in the future, he's 12 he's missing the next election at least.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, its the Independent, do you seriously think anyone takes any notice of what it says?
    I read the Independent thankyou... And trust me, it's more of a read than The Sun.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The independent is shit. I'd rather read the Guardian than that boring pile of toilet paper.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I wouldnt say it was boring. I especially enjoy reading it on a Thursday because Mark Steel does an opinion piece. :D
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Argh the columists/opinion bit writers are the worst part of it. I like its almost impartial reporting of things like terror and Iraq but argh yuck horrible newspaper.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I just find it amusing that someone who is pretty much a Marxist and a comedian is allowed to write an opinion piece. I love them cos i think Mark Steel is great.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Renzo wrote:
    I just find it amusing that someone who is pretty much a Marxist and a comedian is allowed to write an opinion piece. I love them cos i think Mark Steel is great.

    Some of his bits are quite funny, but he recycles his material a lot.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bongbudda wrote:
    Some of his bits are quite funny, but he recycles his material a lot.

    Perhaps, I like the way I can actually hear him through them though. It sounds like how he speaks.

    *goes off to try and find past episodes of The Mark Steel Lectures off the web*

    They might help with my revision ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Mark Steel?

    Nah, you want Mark Steyn.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Nah, you want Mark Steyn.

    not my cup of tea...shite has an accquired taste...you have it...i don't...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ever read any Steyn?
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