Home Politics & Debate
If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Read the community guidelines before posting ✨

Pacifism

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Is this really an achievable belief? Is it possible for the whole world to reach some sort of pacifist agreement or is the concept just to unachievable in todays society?
«134

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Iconic wrote:
    Is this really an achievable belief? Is it possible for the whole world to reach some sort of pacifist agreement or is the concept just to unachievable in todays society?


    it can never be achieved.... you will never get 6 billion people to agree on anything, and as long as you cant agree there are going to be some who will resort to violence to ensure there beliefs are followed
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Does that mean that pacifism as a belief is pointless to those that believe it? What about the quakers...is their religion just another ill thought out religion?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    it can never be achieved.... you will never get 6 billion people to agree on anything, and as long as you cant agree there are going to be some who will resort to violence to ensure there beliefs are followed

    you don't need everyone to agree...there's loads of stuff me and my neighbours don't agree with it...still doesn't mean i drive a car with a bomb in it into their house...we need to change the mindset of people...education is the key...that we're all humans and we should all respect everyone's privacy and life

    trouble with that is that even though all the above are done there's always oging to be criminally insane people who murder or kill because they see it as normal...and humans are generally violent by nature so fuck that for a game of darts...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Iconic wrote:
    Does that mean that pacifism as a belief is pointless to those that believe it? What about the quakers...is their religion just another ill thought out religion?


    no its fine for a group of people to be pacifists. they will probably have a much more enjoyable life than others.... maybe.... but since you asked about the planet as a whole..... no, no chance
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    no its fine for a group of people to be pacifists. they will probably have a much more enjoyable life than others.... maybe.... but since you asked about the planet as a whole..... no, no chance

    Well there is a chance... just a very small one.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Iconic wrote:
    Is this really an achievable belief? Is it possible for the whole world to reach some sort of pacifist agreement or is the concept just to unachievable in todays society?

    The $26 648m in exports by the world's 9 leading arms exporting countries in 2003, make it extremely unlikely.........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    it can never be achieved.... you will never get 6 billion people to agree on anything, and as long as you cant agree there are going to be some who will resort to violence to ensure there beliefs are followed
    see you believe the human mind will devise technology to save mankind but ...the most amazing piece of aparatus yet discoverd in the known universe is the human mind ...yet you have absolutely no faith in it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    see you believe the human mind will devise technology to save mankind but ...the most amazing piece of aparatus yet discoverd in the known universe is the human mind ...yet you have absolutely no faith in it.

    thats true...i have a lot of faith in the human mind...every day it continues to amaze me and it's maturing all the time for me...i believe we can do a load of soul searching within our minds to find the true pleasures in life...relying on materials and old books for this comfort just leads to conflict and betrayel imo...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    it can never be achieved.... you will never get 6 billion people to agree on anything,

    Perhaps when we realise en masse how useless agreement is, and how beneficial it is to have everyone having different beliefs we might make a go of it.

    Civilisation depends on everyone doing different things.

    I also believe in people, as daft as it sounds. That's my faith.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Civilisation depends on everyone doing different things.

    .
    well said.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Pacificism, to be achievable, needs all 6bn to agree that violence is not the answer. All the while you have just one person with the will to make war then you will have just that. Especially if they are able to convince others that it is a good idea.

    As a concept though, it is laudable - but then idealism usually is.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ...the most amazing piece of aparatus yet discoverd in the known universe is the human mind ...yet you have absolutely no faith in it.

    But there's no escaping the fact that history is against having faith in the human mind and also against pacifism. I'm thinking particularly of that old stalwart of forum arguments everywhere...fascism.

    Here's a quote I rather like (actually it's a letter written during the Spanish Civil War by Nan and George Green, a couple of working-class Londoners who went to Spain to put a stop to a bunch of people who fly in the face of pacifists everywhere - George was killed 5 weeks later)...:

    "My dear mother

    ... I would like to say as clearly as possible why we came to Spain --
    and by we I mean not only Nan and myself but all the volunteers of the
    International Brigades.
    1. We came to war because we love peace and hate war.
    2. Fascism, which is the maker of wars today, and which is threatening
    everybody's home and everybody's safety, this same fascism can he
    decisively beaten in Spain and if it is beaten in Spain then it is beaten
    forever as a world force.
    3. We are not pacifists because we believe that the pacifist line is a
    direct encouragement to the war makers . . .
    For us, we shall be glad when it's all over. My idea of a good time is not
    being shot at but is connected with growing lettuce and spring onions and
    drinking beer in a country pub and playing quartets with friends and having
    my children about me to educate me and keep me human. And we're most of us
    like that out here.
    Mother dear, we're not militarists, nor adventurers nor professional
    soldiers: but a few days ago on the hills the other side of the Ebro, I've
    seen a few unemployed lads from the Clyde, and frightened clerks from
    Willesden stand up (without fortified positions) against an artillery
    barrage that professional soldiers could not stand up to. And they did it
    because to hold the line here and now means that we can prevent this battle
    being fought again later on Hampstead Heath or the hills of Derbyshire ...


    All our love George and Nan".

    That sort of makes both sides of the case for faith in the human mind, but is pretty firmly against practical pacifism.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The end point of pacifism is not that you are willing to die rather than take another persons life, but that you are willing to see innocents die rather than step in and kill someone to save them.


    Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    War is here to stay. Its part of human existence, has been and always will be.

    Besides, war has given us many things which probably would not have been discovered for years otherwise.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    War is here to stay. Its part of human existence, has been and always will be.

    Yes. And grass is green. You don't change anything by accepting the way it is though.

    You might as well say "people have always died of cancer, let's not look for a cure".
    Besides, war has given us many things which probably would not have been discovered for years otherwise.

    Yeah, why is that do you think?
    The end point of pacifism is not that you are willing to die rather than take another persons life, but that you are willing to see innocents die rather than step in and kill someone to save them.

    Yep. Defence is fine, offence isn't.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yep. Defence is fine, offence isn't.

    But when do you know which is which? We declared war on Nazi Germany.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the worst part is, we need war. mankind is the only species we have on earth that doesnt have a natural predator to keep its population in check. we used to have famine, disease, drought, all of these have been reduced significantly. wars on a large scale (as bad as it sounds ) every so often do manage to keep our numbers in check
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the worst part is, we need war. mankind is the only species we have on earth that doesnt have a natural predator to keep its population in check. we used to have famine, disease, drought, all of these have been reduced significantly. wars on a large scale (as bad as it sounds ) every so often do manage to keep our numbers in check

    I would expect you, as a doctor, to know something about how AIDs is decimating humanity...........

    If poverty was reduced, the birth rate would fall - sadly the money is spent on yet more arms to kill with, which are then flogged to countries that can't afford, often in the name of aid.

    :grump:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Yep. Defence is fine, offence isn't.

    That's not pacifism.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the worst part is, we need war. mankind is the only species we have on earth that doesnt have a natural predator to keep its population in check. we used to have famine, disease, drought, all of these have been reduced significantly. wars on a large scale (as bad as it sounds ) every so often do manage to keep our numbers in check
    why do i not believe your a doctor :chin:

    famine has wiped out milliopns in the last few years.
    ovbesity heart disease cancers and aids are wiping out millions more ...a pandemic flu is expected anytime soon and so on.

    for those who have little faith in the human mind ...you can only have less in the technology that mind produces.

    those who believe war somehow betters our lives need removing from the planet ...mars anyone?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I would expect you, as a doctor, to know something about how AIDs is decimating humanity...........

    If poverty was reduced, the birth rate would fall - sadly the money is spent on yet more arms to kill with, which are then flogged to countries that can't afford, often in the name of aid.

    :grump:


    decimating humanity?? you need to look up that definition. when you look at the world as a whole, all 6 BILLION of us, its nothing more than a cold
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If the millions dying of AIDs in Africa, starvation killing millions, the Tsumani in Asia killing several hundred thousand aren't big enough exactly how large a war do you want?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    decimating humanity?? you need to look up that definition. when you look at the world as a whole, all 6 BILLION of us, its nothing more than a cold

    Is that right doctor?

    If you look at Africa, it might strike as you somewhat more severe than a migraine.......

    And you sidestepped the point about how resources are used on yet more deadly weapons, even though we already have enought o destroy the planet several times over, whilst people are starving to death and many are dying from lack of access to clean water.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    War is here to stay. Its part of human existence, has been and always will be.
    What about Tibetan Buddhists? No matter what the Chinese do to Tibet all they preach is compassion and forgiveness.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    if more people reached for the highest of ideals ...they would become more achievable but ...how do you get mat and the doctor and their ilk ...out of the way?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Tibet had an army, just not a very effective one.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    We declared war on Nazi Germany

    Yes the UK did, after Hitler's Germany was already well underway in pursuing war of aggression against other sovereign states. That is a far cry from launching "pre-emptive" attack on a nation (or nations as the case may be) which are not attacking anyone outside their borders. "Pre-emptive" is nothing more than newspeak PR for the very evil the UK declared war on Germany to curtail.

    The same holds true for my own country. Remember, the US did not enter the war until Germany first decalred war against us. That is quite clearly the difference between fighting a war of "defence" versus the quite criminally "offensive" (aka War of Aggression) use of our western military infrastructures to advance the globalist hegemonic agenda financing our government from that time to the present.

    However the attempt to dress it up with new PR slogans and rhetoric, the principle behind it all remains nothing more than a will to empire. By any other name it still smells as rank.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes the UK did, after Hitler's Germany was already well underway in pursuing war of aggression against other sovereign states. That is a far cry from launching "pre-emptive" attack on a nation (or nations as the case may be) which are not attacking anyone outside their borders.

    Yes, but pacifism is against all military action, be it offensive or defensive. Plenty of people in the UK in 1939 demonstrated in the streets for arbitration with Hitler rather than war.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What about Tibetan Buddhists? No matter what the Chinese do to Tibet all they preach is compassion and forgiveness.

    Except for the Shaolin monks (I think they started out in India actually) who can kill you with a slightly dirty look...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    and make yer heart explode
Sign In or Register to comment.