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NHS Losing Staff

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
Its good to see that Labour have really improved the NHS, its motivated the staff so much, particularly nurses, that according to the Royal College of Nursing there was a net outflow from the NHS of 15,000 nurses over the last twelve months. Reasons given included growing unhappiness over stress, long hours, overwork, and unsocialable shift patterns. I would guess that Labour's incessant fixation with targets over patient care has also probably frustrated the nurses to such a degree they just can't stand it anymore.
If the current trend continues the net outflow of nurses could grow to 25,000 a year by 2015.

All so very different to Labour spin.
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I bet you would be able to work in the NHS like they do without any problems wouldn't you. :rolleyes:

    More nurses working than in the Tory days though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Two questions:

    1) Why are so many British nurses leaving the NHS?

    2) Why are we importing so many foreign nurses from countries that can ill-afford to lose them?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Rich Kid wrote:
    Two questions:

    1) Why are so many British nurses leaving the NHS?

    2) Why are we importing so many foreign nurses from countries that can ill-afford to lose them?


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1469330,00.html
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Thank you BlackArab.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No probs, I have great concerns as to what will happen when the U.S recruitment drive kicks in as it could create some real problems here as we have done in other countries.

    I'll be interested in hearing the views from Kent before I start ranting too much.

    (or even the Kentish view ;) )
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How long does it take to train a nurse? from say, end of GCSEs to NHS?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Most courses are 3 years long. Which you can start after your A-levels. I think that a problem in the future is that a large number of the people doing their training are mature students, which means that they'll have less time in the profession.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    it is also getting increasingly difficult to get young people working with the elderly or the handicapped.
    todays youngsters are less inclined to change the nappies of old men ...thats the society we live in ...how can governments be blamed?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well, if it takes 3 years to train a nurse from a-levels, and say the 4 years from start of GCSE to end of Alevels to convince someone that's what they want to do. Surely a little more patience is needed with such a project?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Rich Kid wrote:
    according to the Royal College of Nursing there was a net outflow from the NHS of 15,000 nurses over the last twelve months.

    You have a source for that?
    I would guess that Labour's incessant fixation with targets over patient care has also probably frustrated the nurses to such a degree they just can't stand it anymore.

    Just an opinion, or do you have anything to support that claim?

    Also, as the NHS appears to be back on your agenda, any chance of you responding to the other thread which you seem to have forgotten - now that I have shown your website to be bollocks...?
    Black Arab wrote:
    No probs, I have great concerns as to what will happen when the U.S recruitment drive kicks in as it could create some real problems here as we have done in other countries.

    Recruitment to the US and elsewhere has been happening for years, partly because the rest of the world knows how well we train our nurses. I don’t think it will be any more of a problems that it has been for decades. Especially as the wage gap has reduced since more investment has been pumped into the NHS.

    The real concern I have is the sub-specialisation and increasing demands we have placed on our nursing staff. That doesn’t cause of reduction in absolute numbers but it does reduce the amount of capacity they have.

    Sub-specialiation means that there are fewer nurses available to do the “general” work we have always associated with nurses. Be that ward or clinic work. Added to that we ask more and more nurses to carry out more and more work which was once the remit of doctors.

    Therefore the general tasks are passed onto HCAs. Now they are starting to resemble the nurses of old, but without the same level of training. Of course, this also means that the tasks which they carried out just aren’t being done. In many cases these are the “basic” things which people complain about. Feeding patients who cannot feed themselves, providing tea, simple cleaning…
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    'the supply of mobile international nurses is likely to be diverted to the US, which has embarked on a drive to recruit a million extra nurses.'

    taken from the Guardian link

    I know recruitment for the U.S has been steady for a while but do you not think this new drive will affect this country?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Of course it will have an effect, but don't underestimate the power of "Britain" as an image abroad... also our training support is supposed to be so much better. Apparently.

    Shame that nursing doesn't have the same image of here. I guess that constant negative publicity in the national press just makes it look an unattractive option... especially when compared to "media"...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sub-specialiation means that there are fewer nurses available to do the “general” work we have always associated with nurses. Be that ward or clinic work. Added to that we ask more and more nurses to carry out more and more work which was once the remit of doctors.

    Therefore the general tasks are passed onto HCAs. Now they are starting to resemble the nurses of old, but without the same level of training. Of course, this also means that the tasks which they carried out just aren’t being done. In many cases these are the “basic” things which people complain about. Feeding patients who cannot feed themselves, providing tea, simple cleaning…

    I completely agree with this. There seems to be a certain amount of snobbery among some nurses about what is with is with in the nurses remit. I have came across other students who feel that giving basic care to a patient is purely the HCA's job while the nurse should be doing the jobs which require training. I think what is important to remember is that with out the basics, the more advanced procedures are useless.

    I think though that a lot of the time there just aren't enough nurses. I've been on wards where there is 2 nurses to 24 patients. In these conditions alot of the basic tasks have to passed to HCA's who may not no the rational behind basic tasks. On the other hand there are some brilliant HCA's who keep wards going.

    I think that what we've got to be careful of happening is the medicalisation nurses, in which they just become lesser versions of doctors, losing the very thing that makes them nurses.

    I know that is a bit of a muddle, but I'm sure I have a point to make some where.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I feel deeply ashamed as a Briton that we entice trained nurses to leave their homelands to work in the NHS when their own countries need them so desperately. Talk about the rich living off the poor.

    What a morally repugnant policy it is.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Shut up about morals and the rich living off the poor you hypocritical little creep. You wouldn't know christian ethics if they turned the other cheek.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I guess that constant negative publicity in the national press just makes it look an unattractive option... especially when compared to "media"...

    True, but its not new is it? Every political party when in power says how good the NHS is under them and when they're not in power they produce story after story about how bad it is.

    I suspect its more there's just be a sea change in attitudes. It used to be that the idea of 'Public Service' was supported by all sections of the community - whatever there political views. Not sure that's so true anymore. We have some people on the right wing thinking that the only way to do things is through private companies and some on the left thinking that if you vote Tory your some sort of traitor to the idea of public service.

    And in the middle the majority of people no longer give any profession the automatic respect it used to get as everyone now thinks they are an expert
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Rich Kid wrote:
    I feel deeply ashamed as a Briton that we entice trained nurses to leave their homelands to work in the NHS when their own countries need them so desperately. Talk about the rich living off the poor.

    What a morally repugnant policy it is.

    And lo' once again you show you're deep lack of understanding of an issue.

    Do you know how many of these nurses return home, with better training and greater experience than when they left? Do you have any idea of how much moeny transfers from the UK to these nations, helping their economy? For example.

    I don't think that it is a great system, and I would much rather that we grew our own nurses at the level which we need. Reality says differently...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    True, but its not new is it? Every political party when in power says how good the NHS is under them and when they're not in power they produce story after story about how bad it is.

    No, it hasn't always been the case. Until the late 70s the NHS was not as much of a political football that it is now. The mass media approach wasn't as great and neither was the desire to constantly undermine - under the guise of "public interest"...
    I suspect its more there's just be a sea change in attitudes. It used to be that the idea of 'Public Service' was supported by all sections of the community - whatever there political views. Not sure that's so true anymore.

    I don't disagree with this though. Sometime I get the feeling that I am supposed to feel "dirty" because I work in the Public Sector, even though I know I do a valuable job.
    And in the middle the majority of people no longer give any profession the automatic respect it used to get as everyone now thinks they are an expert

    Precisely, how often have you heard NHS managers denegrated? How often do you hear complaints about "red tape"? As if all I do all day is try to find ways to make life harder for clinicians...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    it is also getting increasingly difficult to get young people working with the elderly or the handicapped.
    todays youngsters are less inclined to change the nappies of old men ...thats the society we live in ...how can governments be blamed?


    *clears throat*

    When I qualify I shall be 20. :) But I agree, I am one of the youngest on my course, over half are over 30. It is difficult to recruit students because of the long hours and lomg academic year with only a bursary to live on.. It used to be that students were salaried - the Tories saw an end to that [had to get that dig in.......]

    There are many reasons as to why qualified nurses are leaving. Pay, pensions, hours, red-tape, bureaucracy etc etc. NHS trained nurses are renowned world-wide and can snap up jobs like no-ones business.

    Nurses are not seen as a profession [some call it a semi-profession] due to the lack of autonomy nurses have at the moment [although this is changing - very slowly I might add].

    My personal ways to improve recruitment and retention:

    1. Students get back to salaried posts, yet retaining their supernumery status.
    2. Massive advertising campaign showing that nursing is not just about cleaning shit [they did it with teaching.]
    3. Make the courses less rigid with the ability to study part-time or indeed less hours.
    4. Give students the support they need, both in university and out on placement.
    5. On qualification nurses should have a structured and thorough pre-ceptor year where their progress is monitored.
    6. Nurses should be invloved in decisions more, with regards to treatment and also the ability to implement some of these regimens.
    7. The NHS should allow part-time working as standard.
    8. The NHS should ensure that nurse: patient ratios remain as low as possible - this will ensure that a nurse has enough time to deal with patients as individuals.
    9. Less paperwork - although paperwork is necessary and legally required, the sheer volume of it leaves nurses pen-pushing while clinical work is left to the unqualified staff.
    10. Pay nurses a decent wage - we dont ask for much.. Just what we deserve.
    11. Retain the current pension arrangements.
    12. Give staff the support that they need to ensure that any problems are sorted out a.s.a.p.

    I will probably think of more.......:)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Precisely, how often have you heard NHS managers denegrated? How often do you hear complaints about "red tape"? As if all I do all day is try to find ways to make life harder for clinicians...

    I feel for you, as the proverbial man in Whitehall I'm sure the papers think we make targets for the fun of it and deliberately put in place 'red tape' just to give people jobs, rather than as way to improve performance. And we do all that whilst working three hours a day of which two hours is our lunch break

    Ah well, I still believe in the public service ethos
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Too true about Public Service, I read a shocking story about teachers yesterday which only further convinces me not to consider a teaching career once I graduate.

    I do remember that even in the late 80s a perception within the construction trade that any experience working within local authorities would count against you.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Precisely, how often have you heard NHS managers denegrated? How often do you hear complaints about "red tape"? As if all I do all day is try to find ways to make life harder for clinicians...

    We can all see what you do all day :p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    BlackArab wrote:
    We can all see what you do all day :p
    :D
    we're fucking paying for these posts!!!!!!!!!!!
    dick will have a friggin thromby.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Rich Kid wrote:
    Talk about the rich living off the poor.

    What a morally repugnant policy it is.

    Yep, capitalism is nasty system isn't it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Actually I'm off today!

    You are paying for that too... :p

    Just like you paid me for spending the past seven days (24 hours per day) on-call...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    BlackArab wrote:
    Too true about Public Service, I read a shocking story about teachers yesterday which only further convinces me not to consider a teaching career once I graduate.

    But how much truth was in that story?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If you're a civil servant MOK you need monitoring, we don't pay you to sit around all day on this forum. Its true what they say, civil servants haven't got enough work to do, they're overpaid and underworked - time they got a real job in the private sector.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Yep, capitalism is nasty system isn't it?
    No its a very efficient system and I enjoy its fruits. :)
    Let the Master/Prole relationship long continue.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Rich Kid wrote:
    No its a very efficent system and I enjoy its fruits. :)

    But you keep complaining about its effects.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    But you keep complaining about its effects.
    :confused:
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