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Semiotics for Blagsta

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Let's have a laugh with Blagsta.

Here's the thread. What point do you want to be making?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As you're the one that keeps bringing it up, I assume that you have something to say about it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not at all. Whenever I point out that words are just inventions and don't mean anything on their own you bring it up. I did a quick google and it seems to be bollocks to me but there you go.

    So, anytime you fancy doing it in future you have your own thread to come to.

    Enjoy. ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    LOL! :D Good way of wiggling out of a situation of your own creation! Seeing as you don't want to discuss semiotics, stop bringing it up then.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    P.S.
    Please explain why you think it is "bollocks". Considering semiotics is the study of language, signs and signifiers and one of its main principles is that words don't have meanings in and of themselves but are part of a structure with an arbitary relationship between sign, signifier and signified (you might like to look up Ferdinand de Saussure sometime), I'd have thought it would be entirely relevent to your points. Or is the problem that you don't like to admit that you don't actually have a clue what you're on about?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics

    yeah I looked it up. unfortunately the idea that signs/words have more than a personal meaning is ridiculous.

    To understand how language works -

    I say "fire" you go inside your memory and select some representation of fire in any one of your sensory choices -

    You might have seen a fire burning, smelled it, heard the crackle of it, felt the heat or any combination of these inside your mind. This is how we make sense of words. If you were synesthesic you might have tasted it as well. This happens very very quickly.

    The command to access that experience does not have to be the word "fire" it can be "fuego" or "cheese". And it is a command. You have to imagine what I write in order to make sense of the words you are currently reading.

    Some parts of this are stored in conscious awareness, some parts are stored in unconscious awareness, or in the different hemispheres of the brain. Each word has a meaning to you and to you alone. The fact that others have meanings which are close to yours let's you do cool things like run from a burning building or whatever. Once you get beyond stuff that can be commonly sensed you are talking to yourself alone more often than not.

    I will just provide links at this point so you can verify -

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformational-generative_grammar

    http://brain.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/125/2/361

    http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro98/202s98-paper1/Ball.html

    Semiotics seems to be, on the other hand.......bollocks.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics

    yeah I looked it up. unfortunately the idea that signs/words have more than a personal meaning is ridiculous
    *rest of irrelevant gibberish snipped*

    Errr...what on earth are you on about? You have neatly sidestepped why you think semiotics is bollocks. Let's try again shall we? Why do you think it is "bollocks"?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    P.S.
    Your links spectacularly fail to back up what little point you have.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    For someone who claims to have expert knowledge about the brain and language (btw no one actually knows how the brain acquires, uses and understands language - not even you klintock) to have never heard of semiotics, is quite astonishing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As a nice intro to semiotics I'd recommend Laura Mulvey's Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema - but as a former student of hers I'm biased. Sure is better than jumping right in with Lacanian theory.

    Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Errr...what on earth are you on about? You have neatly sidestepped why you think semiotics is bollocks. Let's try again shall we? Why do you think it is "bollocks"?

    okay dokay.

    What part of my answer are you stuck on Blagsta?
    This paper intends to use psychoanalysis to discover where and how the fascination of film is reinforced by pre-existing patterns of fascination already at work within the individual subject and the social formations that have molded him

    Feeling emotions/body sensations dependant on visual stimulus is a type of synesthesia. No two peoples set of sensations will be the same. Some individuals will not have any. Semiotics (I apologise if my hurried reading of the drivel is incorrect) claims to derive meaning from this process. I don't think that things(stimuli) have meaning, I think they have effects and people have meanings that are entirely personal for those effects.

    http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/syne.html
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not clear about the source, you're saying you have a medical condition that explains your outlook, if so then you can hardly generalise your own perception as how everyone else percieves the world.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh, and why is there a similar reaction by a large number of people during emotional high points in films? Why would so many people in a group react in very similar ways?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not clear about the source, you're saying you have a medical condition that explains your outlook, if so then you can hardly generalise your own perception as how everyone else percieves the world

    Errrr no. I don't have this problem. The fact that some people do have it shows that there is no meaning in symbols. There are people who taste shapes, see smells etc. The medical problems from synesthesia come from perceiving the world differently from others. If everyone tasted shapes then the "problem" wouldn't be one, it would be normal.

    What most, or a majority of people do is see/feel. As in see woman/man and then feel aroused. This obviously does not have to be the case. As one woman can produce many different responses from many different men, so can one symbol or sign produce the same number of different responses.

    The meaning of a symbol or sign must therefore be contained within the experience of the viewer, and not in the symbol. Hence the rejection of semiotics.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Errrr no. I don't have this problem. The fact that some people do have it shows that there is no meaning in symbols. There are people who taste shapes, see smells etc. The medical problems from synesthesia come from perceiving the world differently from others. If everyone tasted shapes then the "problem" wouldn't be one, it would be normal.

    What most, or a majority of people do is see/feel. As in see woman/man and then feel aroused. This obviously does not have to be the case. As one woman can produce many different responses from many different men, so can one symbol or sign produce the same number of different responses.

    The meaning of a symbol or sign must therefore be contained within the experience of the viewer, and not in the symbol. Hence the rejection of semiotics.

    the meaning of a symbol could be explained from within the symbol, except those with a problem do not see it that way
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The meaning of a symbol isn't created suddenly and independantly, which is why this discussion isn't about the effect of a sign on a viewer, it's the inter-relationship between the sign, signifier and signified that creates the commonality.

    And surely the fact that people can be diagnoised with a medical condition because they don't percieve things normally shows there is a mesurable norm. I think the link actually questions everything you're saying rather than supports it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The meaning of a symbol isn't created suddenly and independantly,

    Yes, it is. The fact that most people respond a certain way to stimuli means that they will react in a similar fashion. They all come to the similar conclusions independently of one another because they are using the same process as each other. (More or less) Blind men don't get upset by swastikas.
    And surely the fact that people can be diagnoised with a medical condition because they don't percieve things normally shows there is a mesurable norm. I think the link actually questions everything you're saying rather than supports it.

    Each and every individual has a slightly different internal response. Only when the internal response is radically different is it noticed.

    Quick experiment. Think of the word "love". Do you really think that it creates the same physical and internal experiences as the next man has?

    What is "love" to you? Is it something you feel? Something you see? Or is it a noise? Your own specific set of characteristics for love will be highly personal, individual to you.

    For one person "love" might be an increased heart-rate with a rise in temperature accross the face and a shortness of breath. For another it might be a series of fantasy pictures (in the minds eye) of them and their lover wile their body goes and relaxes.

    Working all that backwards seems to be "semiotics". Saying that one object can create the same sensations in all/some or even two of it's viewers is ridiculous.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Working all that backwards seems to be "semiotics". Saying that one object can create the same sensations in all/some or even two of it's viewers is ridiculous.

    it can do though, doesnt mean it HAS to

    and as for love, you ever heard of words which can have multiple meaning, like

    lead = is it a metal or and action
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    lead = is it a metal or and action

    Another layer of complexity to add to the mix doesn't prove the point does it?
    and as for love, you ever heard of words which can have multiple meaning, like

    No words have meaning. If meaning was contained in the words then I would understand all languages automatically. As I have to learn what is "meant" by the words used, then I must be the one who holds the "meaning".
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Another layer of complexity to add to the mix doesn't prove the point does it?



    No words have meaning. If meaning was contained in the words then I would understand all languages automatically. As I have to learn what is "meant" by the words used, then I must be the one who holds the "meaning".

    and the meaning of the words once learnt is universla to all ofthose that speak the same language, therefore shooting you down yet again
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    and the meaning of the words once learnt is universla to all ofthose that speak the same language, therefore shooting you down yet again

    Two things -

    First of all I showed how "meaning" isn't duplicated between people even on the most basic level. My whole point is that people speak their own private language that has similarities with others, but is not exactly the same. Where there is a degree of overlap there can be useful communication.

    Second - in order to shoot me down again, you would have had to do it a first time.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Two things -

    First of all I showed how "meaning" isn't duplicated between people even on the most basic level. My whole point is that people speak their own private language that has similarities with others, but is not exactly the same. Where there is a degree of overlap there can be useful communication.

    Second - in order to shoot me down again, you would have had to do it a first time.

    my mistake you did it yourself

    a) run into what we all call a tree as hard as you can, and then tell me when you are in A&E that trees dont exist

    people dont speak their own private language, you do realise that things like the websters dictionary is universal to all? its the same book to everyone?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    okay dokay.

    What part of my answer are you stuck on Blagsta?



    Feeling emotions/body sensations dependant on visual stimulus is a type of synesthesia. No two peoples set of sensations will be the same. Some individuals will not have any. Semiotics (I apologise if my hurried reading of the drivel is incorrect) claims to derive meaning from this process. I don't think that things(stimuli) have meaning, I think they have effects and people have meanings that are entirely personal for those effects.

    http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/syne.html


    This is utter gibberish.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    The meaning of a symbol or sign must therefore be contained within the experience of the viewer, and not in the symbol. Hence the rejection of semiotics.

    You've utterly misunderstood semiotics. The whole point is that symbols don't have inherent meanings.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    This is utter gibberish.

    i know, i doubt he actually understands anything about it
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Yes, it is. The fact that most people respond a certain way to stimuli means that they will react in a similar fashion. They all come to the similar conclusions independently of one another because they are using the same process as each other. (More or less) Blind men don't get upset by swastikas.



    Each and every individual has a slightly different internal response. Only when the internal response is radically different is it noticed.

    Quick experiment. Think of the word "love". Do you really think that it creates the same physical and internal experiences as the next man has?

    What is "love" to you? Is it something you feel? Something you see? Or is it a noise? Your own specific set of characteristics for love will be highly personal, individual to you.

    For one person "love" might be an increased heart-rate with a rise in temperature accross the face and a shortness of breath. For another it might be a series of fantasy pictures (in the minds eye) of them and their lover wile their body goes and relaxes.

    Working all that backwards seems to be "semiotics". Saying that one object can create the same sensations in all/some or even two of it's viewers is ridiculous.


    More gibberish. Semiotics doesn't say anything of the sort.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    No words have meaning. If meaning was contained in the words then I would understand all languages automatically. As I have to learn what is "meant" by the words used, then I must be the one who holds the "meaning".

    Even more gibberish. Yes, symbols don't have inherent meanings, meaning is in the structure, the relationships of symbols. If it was only you who held the "meaning", communication would be impossible.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Two things -

    First of all I showed how "meaning" isn't duplicated between people even on the most basic level. My whole point is that people speak their own private language that has similarities with others, but is not exactly the same. Where there is a degree of overlap there can be useful communication.

    Second - in order to shoot me down again, you would have had to do it a first time.

    No one has to shoot you down, you do it yourself quite adequately.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    what happens when his record stops been broken?

    i hope he aint a pop fan, i couldnt be doing with show me the way to amarillo after all that tripe ive read of his
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    a) run into what we all call a tree as hard as you can, and then tell me when you are in A&E that trees dont exist

    Oh dear. You do know that you can only have a tree if you are not looking at branches or forests don't you? On the other hand if we changed the word "matress" for "tree" and stuck to it then a "tree" would become a "matress". The word then, is not linked to the thing it symbolises.

    I am thinking of a rock. Now you think of a rock.

    I was thinking of a piece of grey/blue granite with the light from above. Were you thinking of the exact same thing as I was?

    Were you fuck.

    There would be some element of similarity but it's incredibly unlikely that you were thinking of the same thing i was. No imagine the amount of agreement we would have when you start saying "Semiotics". Little? None?
    people dont speak their own private language, you do realise that things like the websters dictionary is universal to all? its the same book to everyone

    The fact that you need a dictionary to agree definitions proves that words don't just have one meaning. For the sake of convenience we might take "Websters" completely arbitary choice as being most useful.

    That's fine by me, but it still requires me and you to learn "meaning" independently of each other so we can communicate effectively.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    For the last time, the whole basis of semiotics is that words don't have any meaning in themselves - that's the whole principal of the idea.
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