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I'd call them liberal values rather than working class and even then I'm not sure some of them are even fully liberal.
Then again your notion of class only considers monetary wealth. There are many people who grew up on council estates, with little or no formal education and took up trades which allowed them to start their own businesses and move into more desirable areas. However, a lot of them would still claim to be 'working class'. Indeed, what about someone who grew up on a council estate, went to school and then uni training as a nurse? Now they are on a nomianl salary working long hours. Are they middle-class? Is it education that makes you middle-class, or wealth, or where you live, who you socialise with? Is it how you consider yourself to be? Or how others consider you?
as you say class is quite a complicated issue, especially nowadays.
I've always found it ironic and puzzling how the people who moan the loudest about having to pay taxes are those who can afford paying them without batting an eyelid. Whereas the people who are most affected financially by taxes are those most prepared to pay them.
Proof that wealth and power corrupt and dehumanise people, IMO.
BNP support is higher within working class areas than middle class. The Sun is more a working class paper than a middle class one. The tolerant working class seems to be a bit of a myth.
I think there are many good working class values - loyalty to friends and family, patriotism, individual charity (not the same as paying tax).
Not to mention ripped off :rolleyes:
I'd have to agree. The kind of liberalism discussed here is generally associated with the middle classes - people who can afford to welcome all-comers with open arms because they are unlikely to view them as a threat perhaps (having spare cash, living in more affluent areas where immigration, say, has less impact, having secure jobs)?
That would be more my line of thought as well.
How else can we approach this thread? Social class is all about peoples' perceptions.
That's true, but ascribing a set of principles on a whole group of people is as dangerous as saying all muslims are terrorists.
Weeeell, perhaps. But then again you can ascribe a set of principles to Muslims can't you? In a broad sense at least? They believe in God, they believe in the importance of charity etc. Then you have to account for the fact that there will always be exceptions to the rule.
They came up with a new system for it I think so there isn't any named definitions but a scale... there's like 1.1 which is the best, 1.2 etc and I'm something like 8 (the lowest
Whether or not you put them in a defined class or not, you can't deny that people often don't mix with people who are more or less affluent than them.
A McJob is not proper employment.
Not wanting to do shit jobs is not a sign of "stuck-up-ness", it is a sign that people won't flog themselves to death for peanuts.
Your anger, yet again, is completely misplaced. Instead of slagging peoplen off who WON'T flog themselves to death for pence, perhaps you should be attacking large MNCs such as Mitie who get very very rich off the back of people working for minimum wage.
I work for what is a poor wage. I do it because it's a means to an end- I need experience, this provides it. The wage is still scandalous though. Most shit jobs don't offer this incentive, either.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/4392345.stm
Thank God for the minimum wage...
Its how it works. Sadly that is what we are told is the way of the world, you get a shit job, work at it and try to get a better one through the experience... sadly alot of people are trying to jump in above this.
So... if the case is that people should get paid more... how the hell did people survive before the minimum wage was upped? Certain people will ALWAYS get paid peanuts under a capitalist system while others make huge wads of cash off of it. You can find it in the majority of employment forms. Its always a pyramid.
If I was by myself I'd be better off on benefits than in the job I am in now. The benefits system isn't wrong, either.
The idea of hte minimum wage is to make jobs good enough to live on. The Benefits system shouldn't make you better off. I don't disagree with the benefits system, I just dislike the abuse it is taking. To many people by far are bumming off it when they could be working. A fair few people are doing both, too. I lvoe how some claim to be poor, yet have a bloody sky dish and a big arse car outside.
I know somejobs won't sustain you, like low hours jobs. They aren't really meant to though... they are more of a bit extra income or suchlike.
Crap jobs always need doing. If everyone bummed off benifit instead of it, where they hell would we be? In the current system, apy is often based on the skill required, or more often, on how big and important it sounds. The Captain of a boat isn't necessary, yet he gets paid most. Odd? Meh. A low level job often needs neither alot of skill and doesn't sound impressive, so your on a loser if your the McDonalds bun-opener. (No shit here, someone I know has that job.)
So really, class isn't so much money anymore... But perhaps education, or social standards.
I'd agree - social 'ettiquette' and behaviour is a big one. Why are so many people anti social these days? People go into shops with hats on and all sorts, it's not a big thing but it just is bad manners
i'd agree with that to a degree but money certainly is an issue...i know a lot of families where they are finding it nearly impossible to bring their children up, the children suffer because of this, and leading from that, don't get a proper education, then the cycle continues, so saying "everyone has the oppurtunity to make it in this world" is true, it's just some people have better oppurtunities than others.
do you ever wonder why chavs act like, there is certainly an undercurrent of anger and alienation running through this"new ruling class" as it's called, it's not that their bad people in general, they've just havne't had it good their whole lives and take their anger out on others, thats why you'll never see a chav from one estate hit a mate from that same estate but you'll always see them stick up for each other, go about in groups and all, it's all about community, there is a spirit there and i admire them for that...others just don't see that but ah well...
Lazy twats who have to be given other peoples money to make ends meet.
If the roles were reversed, you can bet those saintly working classes would be every bit as 'me first' as you say the middle classes are.
Yeah, if theyre rich they are scum, basically.
Except gypsies, gays, blacks etcetc. The Sun is a working class paper, is it not?
well yea basically...well the old style estates anyway...you see new estates being built and the houses are fucking massive...
No actually. Council estates are working class neighbourhoods.
"Chav and Proud"
a difficult economic situation often polarizes people's political views. That's why many extremists come from the working class. It would make since that something like the Sun would be geared towards people who live on estates.
Such as low pay workers who work 48 hours a week for fuck all, you mean?
Such as pensioners?
Maybe. Which would go to prove further that, with a few honourable exceptions, the more wealth and power people amass, the more dehumanised they become.
Thank you for agreeing with me.
LOL. That free-market, Thatcherite, anti-union, ultra right wing tabloid is about as working class as Prince Charles.
Try again.
ah good ole charles...wanking class hero...
Oh, right. I thought working class people just bought it for the tits. But obviously they must agree with all that as well. Thanks for agreeing with me.
not really...90% of people i see who buy the sun etc etc lift it up and turn immediately to the back page for the sports section...politics isn't really thre big concern for sun readers...it's gossip and sport...