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Social class

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Hey :wave:

I basically never post in this forum (I don't know enough about politics to)..but I was wondering your views on social class?

Personally, I think that it is, and always will be a large part of society. There will always be divides between people and its true that the class you are born into will have a big influence on the rest of your life. Although, it is possible to change classes it is somewhat difficult.

The media just highlights these class divisions, through stereotypes. I mean you turn on the TV, and see something like Eastenders/Coronation Street which portrays a working class society..and shows like "Wife Swap" always have a WC woman and a MC/UC woman..it'll never change.
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I have said it before, and I'll repeat it. With the impression I get Britain places a lot more emphasis and pride connected to the different classes, than what I experience in mainland Europe.
    Yes we have differences in the social ladder, and bring it up when it's relevant, but I can't say I have experienced people highlighting their own class and estimating their worth in that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Social class will always be an issue in a capitalist society. End of.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There is a large class divide in Britain I would say. You have your working class teenage chavs. Your middle and upper class 'individual' teenagers (like myself). Same with adults. For a lot of people going down the pub most evenings is the height of their social ladder, getting drunk and using lots of profanities. For others it's going out to swanky bars and getting home and picking up their music remote to put on some music or something at the touch of a button. I would say by and large the two classes don't mix that much. But that's my opinion, and most people seem to think Britain is fantastic because there is no social divide.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In my opinion, a "poor" person getting drunk in a local pub is no different from a toff getting pissed in a swanky bar.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    PussyKatty wrote:
    In my opinion, a "poor" person getting drunk in a local pub is no different from a toff getting pissed in a swanky bar.

    It is no different, I agree :) but they don't mix do they? And they both have negative views of each other - as you have shown with your use of language there (refering to 'toff'). I see the class divide as a very dangerous one in Britain that is often overlooked yet everyone seems to say these days "oh that's not true, I hang out with my mate who's a millionaire and my other mate who's homeless!".

    Yet in reality, how many jaguars do you see parked up outside a rough pub on a council estate, and how many skoda ladas do you see outside a swanky bar in london? None, these people still don't mix, and they still bear ill feelings towards each other. The poor wished the rich had less money and they had more, the rich wish the poor would keep their squabbles to themselves and stay out of affluent areas.

    If it was a racial divide there would be an uproar, but because it's only people's class there doesn't seem to be so much bother.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I guess, but if you go up town on a Saturday night you will meet people from all walks of life out and about..

    Also you may be born poor in a crappy area and then make better of yourself by education and hard work...I'm not saying class stuff doesn't exist but it is not that clear cut.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    PussyKatty wrote:
    I guess, but if you go up town on a Saturday night you will meet people from all walks of life out and about..

    Also you may be born poor in a crappy area and then make better of yourself by education and hard work...I'm not saying class stuff doesn't exist but it is not that clear cut.

    I know it's not a complete divide, but it does exist and is very prominent. People's circumstances do change of course - at 15 you might be living on a council estate drinking buckfast with your mates and at 25 you might be a high powered executive. Or, at 15 you could be going to the opera with one or two of your friends every other weekend but at 25 things could have gone wrong and you end up living off jobseekers allowance. It's highly unlikely that you're going to be mixing with the same kind of people.

    A personal example - one of my friends recently went to a 6th form college and became increasingly hostile towards me and my other friends who stayed on at our community college because she thought she was upper class. Eventually she told us that she no longer wanted to be associated with us because she thought we weren't very good friends :/ whatever that means. Then again, I've found myself alienated from friends when they've started hanging out at night drinking and doing drugs etc because it divides people.

    Division between people is not good :(
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    "Class" is largely irrelevant now. I wouldn't go so far as to claim that we're all bourgeois now, but in the traditional understanding of class there has been a concentration into what can be termed the "middle class".

    Of course we still have the self-perpetuating poor and hyper-rich, but more people have more opportunity to "better" themselves than ever before, and they are taking it.

    My parents, for example, started out with literally nothing, but they worked hard enough for me to not be spending my formative years in poverty. I've worked hard and got a good degree from a good university, and I went to a school that even OFSTED labelled as "grossly underfunded".
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    there is still a strong social class divide in britain,and i believe,allways will be.
    the most irritating people at the moment,are working class snobs.these people do well career wise,get a bit of money then look down their nose at normal working class people.
    of corse we will allways have the "tory" type middle class wankers that look down their nose at everyone,but they don't seem to bother me as much as working class snobs.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There isn't such a thing as the "normal" working class anymore, though. Either you have money or you don't.

    If you apply yourself you can have money. Not a lot, but enough. And no, that's not true in all cases, but it is in most. If you're bright enough to con the benefits people then you are bright enough to get a decent job- the difference is application.

    Those who genuinely cannot find a decent job deserve all the help they can get. Those in work should be rewarded, and tax credits are an excellent way to do this. Those who are physically or mentally unable to find work should get all the encouragement and help they need. Parenthood should be considered genuine work.

    Those who won't get a job don't deserve a single penny.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    by "working class"..i mean people that actually work for a living.working class snobs,are people that have their own buisness or have a high paid job.i don't mean everyone though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But if you are a professional or are self-employed (i.e own the means of production) then you are middle-class.

    Snobbery, as you put it, only becomes a problem when you become convinced that you are arrogant, or you think that everyone who doesn't match your standards is "lazy".

    I don't think that in the current employment climate there is any excuse to be unemployed for a significant period of time, if you are a person of reasonable intelligence and are aged under about 48.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    Of course we still have the self-perpetuating poor and hyper-rich, but more people have more opportunity to "better" themselves than ever before, and they are taking it.

    i agree. although there were always opportunities to 'better' yourself. i put that in inverted commas cause i happen to think there's nothing at all wrong with living your whole life in a way that would be labelled working class. so you're a cleaner living with your factory worker husband in an ex-council terrace house in a dodge area? so what? a job is a job and a house is a house and i have as much respect for people like that as i do for a GP on £100k living in a swanky suburban house.

    but yeah, i don't think anyone is condemned to anything. you just have to get off your ass and work for it.

    in some ways it is easier now. in others it is harder. when my mum was born (to immigrant parents), her family were immensely poor. there were no benefits, no hand outs. they were able to stay here and afford to live because my grandparents literally worked their socks off for it. if they didn't work, they didn't eat. simple as. my mum worked in between her studies from being about 13. but back then there were uni grants and no fees, so she could afford to go get a degree. these days she probably wouldn't have been able to. forty years on, she has a nice house in a nice area with a comfortable pension.

    class shouldn't be about what you are born into. it should be about what you make of yourself.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Exactly, and that's my big problem with tuition fees. The loan I think is just about acceptable- why should someone else pay for me to get pissed on the cheap for three years?- except that it should be enough to live on and shouldn't be means-tested.

    If you are working, and are comfortable, then you have my upmost respect. If you are too lazy to work you shouldn't get anything.

    I would note that parenting should be considered a full-time jopb too, should you choose to do that. Single parents shouldn't be condemned as "lazy scroungers", they should be encouraged to look after their children as a first priority.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    there is no excuse for not working,if you are fit and able.i don't agree that all self made people are middle class,the majority keep their working class values,but some don't.they are the people that annoy me.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why should they keep their "working class values"?

    What are "working class values" anyway?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    Why should they keep their "working class values"?

    What are "working class values" anyway?
    i think it is important to remember where you started,and don't suddenly ignore the very people that helped you get to where you are.
    working class values are a mind set that keeps this country going,making it the country that it is.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    DEANO MAC wrote:
    there is still a strong social class divide in britain,and i believe,allways will be.
    the most irritating people at the moment,are working class snobs.these people do well career wise,get a bit of money then look down their nose at normal working class people.
    of corse we will allways have the "tory" type middle class wankers that look down their nose at everyone,but they don't seem to bother me as much as working class snobs.
    if you'd a been the same age as me ...we'd atread same cobbles lad.

    me?























    class A.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    England, like every other country, has a class devide. It is frankly what made England so great. It is what helped us to become so disliked and loved, envied and admired across the entire planet. Classless, multiculturalist infatuated liberal feminists in there twenties have franticly with grating persitence tried to destroy it and they almost have. But they can never oblitirate it completly as it's a part of life.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Scarlet wrote:
    Social class will always be an issue in a capitalist society. End of.

    Indeed, Capitalist systesm enforce Social class differnce by making the poor feel they can never get out of it and thats the way it is.

    Only in a highly advacned Communist society would it disapeer. That'd take years to make, and by then America would have delcared that country evil and kileld at least half of its population, throwing it back to the stone age.

    I absolutley HATE the way half of Britains working class try to convince themselves they are Middleclass types. It is so fucknig pathetic! It also leads to problems like they won't do lower pay jobs, so we have to get immigrants to do them as the stuck up twats won't.

    Realise your class, work the jobs, or alternatley do something about it. No one wants to though, lazy gits.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If you can get a higher paying (and probably more satisfying) job - why go for one which is lower paid just because of your class?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    I absolutley HATE the way half of Britains working class try to convince themselves they are Middleclass types. It is so fucknig pathetic! It also leads to problems like they won't do lower pay jobs, so we have to get immigrants to do them as the stuck up twats won't.

    The minimum wage makes it harder though. It is more viable for some people to live on the dole than get a hard working labour job. Because of the minimum wage a lot of lower down jobs are now given to a smaller workforce, thus the individual has to do more work. So do you want to work a 40 hour backbusting week or lounge around on your playstation? Hardly even a question...

    Nothing wrong with immigrants working, they help fuel the economy with new labour, which leads to growth, which makes us all richer! :yum:
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    The minimum wage makes it harder though. It is more viable for some people to live on the dole than get a hard working labour job. Because of the minimum wage a lot of lower down jobs are now given to a smaller workforce, thus the individual has to do more work. So do you want to work a 40 hour backbusting week or lounge around on your playstation? Hardly even a question...

    Nothing wrong with immigrants working, they help fuel the economy with new labour, which leads to growth, which makes us all richer! :yum:

    Yes... but people still bitch about them when they won't get off their arse and work in that job. You ask them "Would YOU clean the toilets at place X?" "Hell no! I want a job doing x,y,z!". Tossers.

    ALOT of the people also can't get higher paid jobs becasue they lack the education/qualifications. Half of them though they'd be "cool" and skip off school, as well. I hate the way this current culture makes eduction seem uncool.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    Yes... but people still bitch about them when they won't get off their arse and work in that job. You ask them "Would YOU clean the toilets at place X?" "Hell no! I want a job doing x,y,z!". Tossers.

    ALOT of the people also can't get higher paid jobs becasue they lack the education/qualifications. Half of them though they'd be "cool" and skip off school, as well. I hate the way this current culture makes eduction seem uncool.

    It is mportant to note, however, practical skilled jobs are in high demand whereas graduate jobs are not, because we have so many graduates. In some jobs they ask for a degree when it is not encessary because so many people apply with good qualifications it's an easy way to filter out the 'thickos'.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It is mportant to note, however, practical skilled jobs are in high demand whereas graduate jobs are not, because we have so many graduates. In some jobs they ask for a degree when it is not encessary because so many people apply with good qualifications it's an easy way to filter out the 'thickos'.
    you are quite right about the shortage of skilled workers,it seems like todays culture is all about what you look like,rather than how much you get paid.
    a teenager with a suit,looks down on the man digging the road up,yet the man digging the road up,probably knows a shit load more about life,and everything that's important,than this dick head that is constantly looking in the mirror!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    DEANO MAC wrote:
    you are quite right about the shortage of skilled workers,it seems like todays culture is all about what you look like,rather than how much you get paid.
    a teenager with a suit,looks down on the man digging the road up,yet the man digging the road up,probably knows a shit load more about life and everything that's important,than this dick head that is constanly looking in the mirror!

    And the man digging up the road is probably getting paid more ;) people in skilled proffesions like brickys and plumbers are earning £40k-£50k a year if they do a lot of work, your average graduate starts at maybe £20k (guess).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And the man digging up the road is probably getting paid more ;) people in skilled proffesions like brickys and plumbers are earning £40k-£50k a year if they do a lot of work, your average graduate starts at maybe £20k (guess).
    i meant to say getting paid more in that.....i need to cut down luv!
    yea,that is exactly my point! :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The class divide is alive and well. The education system perpetuates it in part. At my uni the public school kids are a very different social group and have their own bars, social circle and even part of town that they all live in.

    Its a very marked divide.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And the man digging up the road is probably getting paid more ;) people in skilled proffesions like brickys and plumbers are earning £40k-£50k a year if they do a lot of work, your average graduate starts at maybe £20k (guess).

    Graduates earn far more over their career.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    Why should they keep their "working class values"?

    What are "working class values" anyway?
    It'd be a massive generalisation and naturally would not apply to everyone, but if I had to define some working class values I'd say:

    - Social responsibility and acceptance of taxation and the welfare systems as not only necessary but beneficial to all

    - Refusal of the 'me first' greed culture that affects so many wealthy people

    - Refusal to judge others and assert their 'value' as people in terms of their personal wealth

    - Tolerance towards other groups in society
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