Another Jew Thread! Homelands.

Former Member

Just wondering:

I read in another thread someone saying that a Jew and an Israelite were not the same thing. I can understand Israelis needing a homeland, but why would a religion need a homeland?

As far as I'm aware, Christians don't have one country they can specifically call their own, and neither do the Muslims seem to. Nor does any other religion on earth as far as i am aware. Happy to be corrected if i'm wrong!

So every religion has suffered persecution at one point in history or another. Why does the Jewish religion need a land to call its own?

Former Member

I suspect its because that their past experience of living in countries which are dominated by other religions hasn't been uniformly good (eg Henry III expelling them from England, various Pogroms in Russia and Poland, the Holocaust).

Former Member

Is saudi arabia specifically Muslim only? I know that quite a few middle eastern countries are predominantly muslim, but is it specific?

Former Member

i think the difference with the jews is they have a religous book that promises them a certain homeland.
i don't think any other race or religion has this.

Former Member

Oh, just found a website saying that Pakistan was set up as a Muslim homeland.

Former Member

Lukesh, SHUT UP, you're not being helpful.

I know what you're talking about Roo, religiously speaking, the Hebrews/Jews/Israelites/Decendants of Abraham were promised land of their own all the way through Genesis and Exodus (sorry, don't know the names in the Torah).

Whereas while there are countries that are predominantly any given religion; India as Hindi, Singapore as Buddist (and if I'm not mistaken so much so that they'll give sentances of several hundred years to serious crimes), Spain as Christian, as far as I know ONLY judaism were promised in religious texts a specific area of land to be their homeland flowing with milk and honey and all that.

Former Member

Right... well that's nice for you...

Former Member

Under the Gulfwar the Saudis didn't have problems letting American soldiers in, to fight for them and possibly die for the too. They did have problems with them bringing their bibles and setting up assemblys for prayer. The bibles had to be "smuggled" in, meaning that the plane carrying them was allowed to fly in while the people in charge were supposedly bribed by the government in order not to confiscate the Bibles.
They even went as far as making the Jewish soldiers have their prayers in a hangarship outside of Saudi-Arabia.

Saudi-Arabia are the protectors of the "two holysites" (Mecca and Medina) and Islam is an incorporated and significant part of their society. Not even just Islam, but Sunni Islam. Shiites don't have much to say.

And what about Italy and the Vatican state?
Or just take Denmark and the fact that we're a country based on a christian constitution? Every child born is automatically a member of the Danish church until (if) it's parents stop the membership. I imagine it to be more or less the same in England?
I mean, also, when are the holidays? On Christian holidays.
And even with the EU constitution they were discussing if they should incorporate something about Christianity in it.

If you ask me, the only religions not having some kind of home is the small independant ones and the sects.
I find it suitable that Jews have a place where they can practice their religion without being outside the norm. But that's just me maybe...

Former Member

Jacqueline the Ripper wrote:

I find it suitable that Jews have a place where they can practice their religion without being outside the norm. But that's just me maybe...

Aah, so Judaism is the norm in the Middle East?

Former Member

freethepeeps wrote:

Aah, so Judaism is the norm in the Middle East?

No, it's the norm in Israel.

Enjoy appearing wilfully stupid?

Former Member

Jacqueline the Ripper wrote:

No, it's the norm in Israel.

Enjoy appearing wilfully stupid?

Is it the norm in Israel?

Exactly how many Israeli Jews are secular?

Former Member

freethepeeps wrote:

Is it the norm in Israel?

Exactly how many Israeli Jews are secular?

Quite a lot.
But how many don't celebrate the holidays in one way or another?

Former Member

Jacqueline the Ripper wrote:

Quite a lot.
But how many don't celebrate the holidays in one way or another?

I was under the impression that diaspora jews celebrate the holidays......

Whats "quite a lot"?

Former Member

And the diaspora Jews also face a problem when they try to take time off for Yom Kippur...
Likewise they face problems when trying to buy kosher meat and it's 3 times as expensive as regular meat etc.

And I don't know the figures of the different groupings in Israel. Look it up.

Former Member

Jacqueline the Ripper wrote:

And the diaspora Jews also face a problem when they try to take time off for Yom Kippur...
Likewise they face problems when trying to buy kosher meat and it's 3 times as expensive as regular meat etc.

And I don't know the figures of the different groupings in Israel. Look it up.

If 33% of Israeli Jews are secular, then practising Judaism is not the norm.....

Former Member

freethepeeps wrote:

If 33% of Israeli Jews are secular, then practising Judaism is not the norm.....

How secular is secular?

Former Member

More to the point, what does practicing in a secular way count? If it's considered 'normal' to be jewish, then the number of people practicing seriously or not has no impact.

Former Member

Fiend_85 wrote:

More to the point, what does practicing in a secular way count? If it's considered 'normal' to be jewish, then the number of people practicing seriously or not has no impact.

Thanks for that. If it doesn't bother you too much, am I allowed to discuss what JtR actually says, rather than what you think she said?

Jacqueline the Ripper wrote:

I find it suitable that Jews have a place where they can practice their religion without being outside the norm. But that's just me maybe...

Former Member

Jacqueline the Ripper wrote:

How secular is secular?

How religious is religious?

I guess people who don't practise religion on a regular basis, infrequently or never attend places of worship, and whose lives are shaped by forces other then G-d.

Former Member

freethepeeps wrote:

How religious is religious?

I guess people who don't practise religion on a regular basis, infrequently or never attend places of worship, and whose lives are shaped by forces other then G-d.

What I thought. That is more or less me. And the people I know in Israel who are even less "religious" than me still manage to eat a Shabbat meal together every friday night, and celebrate the different holidays.
The norm in Israel is to keep shops closed on friday nights and saturdays, therefore I would say that practicing Judaism to an extent or other is certainly the norm in Israel.

Former Member

A nation of indigenous people get to be oppressed and dispossessed so that shops are closed on Friday nights and Saturdays?

Former Member

lukesh wrote:

is a sign of a jewish state. how difficult is that to understand?

I'm having a "be kind to the intellectually wanting day", so I guess I shouldn't say it.....

:razz:

Former Member

freethepeeps wrote:

Thanks for that. If it doesn't bother you too much, am I allowed to discuss what JtR actually says, rather than what you think she said?

You are being willfully stupid. Like I said, the number of people practicing doesn't affect the norm, it is perception of it.

Former Member

Fiend_85 wrote:

You are being willfully stupid. Like I said, the number of people practicing doesn't affect the norm, it is perception of it.

With all due respect, the strongest argument advanced for a Jewish state in Palestine is that G-d gave it to the Jews.

Of course if you don't believe in God, or have doubts about the validity of God's title deeds, it doesn't seem like a strong argument at all! And if over half the population are not practising Jews, then how is it "the norm" ?

Former Member

As I said, it's about perception, I'll illustrate it, because you are clearly without cognitive ability. In the UK Christianity is not widely practiced in a serious sense, but it is still 'the norm' to be a christian.

Former Member

Fiend_85 wrote:

As I said, it's about perception, I'll illustrate it, because you are clearly without cognitive ability. In the UK Christianity is not widely practiced in a serious sense, but it is still 'the norm' to be a christian.

Cognitive ability, eh?

I find it suitable that Jews have a place where they can practice their religion without being outside the norm. But that's just me maybe...

Oh, and I seem to remember that you gave a very different definition of what a christian was recently.

:eek2:

Former Member

What has that got to do with whether being Jewish is seen as 'normal' in Israel?

Former Member

Fiend_85 wrote:

What has that got to do with whether being Jewish is seen as 'normal' in Israel?

Remind me how we got from discussing whether the practice of Judaism was the norm in Israel, to a focus on whether being Jewish is normal in Israel.

Ah yes, and am I a christian, or not?

I don't believe in god, I think the church is run by corrupt, evil autocrats. My parents were nominal christians.

Thanks

Former Member

queenmab_roo wrote:

Just wondering:

I read in another thread someone saying that a Jew and an Israelite were not the same thing. I can understand Israelis needing a homeland, but why would a religion need a homeland?

As far as I'm aware, Christians don't have one country they can specifically call their own, and neither do the Muslims seem to. Nor does any other religion on earth as far as i am aware. Happy to be corrected if i'm wrong!

So every religion has suffered persecution at one point in history or another. Why does the Jewish religion need a land to call its own?

as far as im concerned and from what i've been taught, Palestine/Isreal (whatever the fuck you want to call it) is the holy land, it is the land where all religions began (to some degree) and therefore should not be (in my opinion) given to one religion as their "homeland"

Jacqueline the Ripper wrote:

Saudi-Arabia are the protectors of the "two holysites" (Mecca and Medina) and Islam is an incorporated and significant part of their society. Not even just Islam, but Sunni Islam. Shiites don't have much to say.

yes, saudi arabia is a muslim holy site...and it is a predominantly sunni state but yes there are "shiite" muslims there too but they are a minority...the reason for this is that the "shiite" muslims come from Iraq and that is their "homeland"

my reason for putting "shiite" in quotation marks is because thats not the "proper" arabic name for them....and i cant stand the word "shiite", "shi'a" is my preference

Former Member

Still propogating the same old anti-semitic crap eh Amira?

Funny, I would have thought youd be banned by now...

Former Member

The Matadore wrote:

Still propogating the same old anti-semitic crap eh Amira?

Funny, I would have thought youd be banned by now...

Erm, theres nothing anti-semitic there at all. Anyone would think you were picking on Amira.

:eek: