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The Feminist Trap

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Russ T Bitz
    A good start IMO would be with what it says about domestic violence, how much of it is dedicated to male victims? The media always has women as the victims and although this may be the status quo in most circumstances, as men are made out to be in the minority shouldn't we get the usual 'minority rights' such as our own Minister for males against domestic violence? The media's obsession with 'sweeping it under the carpet' makes it even more difficult for male victims to feel like they can come forward and be believed.

    For example, in Wales there is just ONE male refuge. How many do you think there are for women?
    why would they be devoted to male domestic violence??????
    Is the gay movement expected to campaign for heterosexuals?
    are black movements expected to devote 50% of their time promoting the rights of white people?
    Theres actually an artical about this very weird conception people have of feminsim on that site.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by rainbow brite
    why would they be devoted to male domestic violence??????
    Is the gay movement expected to campaign for heterosexuals?
    are black movements expected to devote 50% of their time promoting the rights of white people?
    Theres actually an artical about this very weird conception people have of feminsim on that site.

    You're missing my point - I'm not saying they should be devoted to male victims but the way it's not even mentioned is typical for the way it's not taken seriously by a great many people today. Sites like that are very irresponsible in acting as if there are no such things as 'male victims of domestic abuse'.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru

    That's actually quite a good article but she falls in to the usual trap of rubbishing one of her dectractor's issues (about the way many males are made out to be stupid and/or childlike in TV adverts) instead of addressing it directly, simply because she doesn't seem to deem it important enough.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Russ T Bitz
    You're missing my point - I'm not saying they should be devoted to male victims but the way it's not even mentioned is typical for the way it's not taken seriously by a great many people today. Sites like that are very irresponsible in acting as if there are no such things as 'male victims of domestic abuse'.
    You show me where they say there are no such things as male victims of DV.
    Everyone knows men can be victims too. Its sad, but in the vast VAST majority of cases women are the victims. Thats why they concentrate on that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Russ T Bitz
    That's actually quite a good article but she falls in to the usual trap of rubbishing one of her dectractor's issues (about the way many males are made out to be stupid and/or childlike in TV adverts) instead of addressing it directly, simply because she doesn't seem to deem it important enough.
    She does take it seriously, and sees it as an example of how patriarchy hurts men too.
    Are you reading it in a completley different way to me?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by rainbow brite
    You show me where they say there are no such things as male victims of DV.
    Everyone knows men can be victims too. Its sad, but in the vast VAST majority of cases women are the victims. Thats why they concentrate on that.

    I disagree because we'll never know the real statistics... male or female, domestic violence cases aren't easy to report. I mean is a man going to report that his wife kicks the crap outta him?

    I personally can sympathise with male victims of domestic violence too and Russ... I think the reason why there are so few shelters for mne like that is probably more to do with the demand for them rather than men being thrown on the streets and women being favoured.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by rainbow brite
    You show me where they say there are no such things as male victims of DV.

    Read my post again - I said they act AS IF there are no male victims. I wouldn't be as irresponsible as to say they do not think they exist.
    Originally posted by rainbow brite
    Everyone knows men can be victims too. Its sad, but in the vast VAST majority of cases women are the victims. Thats why they concentrate on that.

    You may well think that "everyone knows" men can be victims but certainly not everyone sympathises. I used to work in the IT room of my local YMCA and there used to be a coffee morning for the single and lonely mothers. One week there was a discussion on domestic violence and they discussed the recent local case of a male victim who was abused for 4 years by his ex-wife. I overheard the women in the coffee morning cackling like witches at him saying "it's about time men had a taste of their own medicine".

    Concentrating on the majority of victims will only serve to make it difficult for the minority to feel like their complaints will be taken seriously.
    Originally posted by rainbow brite
    She does take it seriously, and sees it as an example of how patriarchy hurts men too.
    Are you reading it in a completley different way to me?

    It's possible that I do. As a former victim of domestic abuse I detest articles on such matters which either play down or rubbish men's feeling and opinions on feminism, as well as those which almost ignore the fact that there are some truly dangerous women out there, ably masked by the media which portrays us male victims as weak, stupid and impotent. As a woman you are unlikely to have noticed this but trust me, it's a venomous habit which is alive and well in 2005.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by girl with sharp teeth
    Perhaps you're missing the major point here Russ T Blitz - it's a feminist website looking at issues adversely affecting women. It shouldn't be wasting time looking at other sections of society. If you want articles that focus on male victims then you need to be looking on a website that caters for that, not lambasting somewhere that does not cater for them.

    I am not saying they should be catered for - but anyone looking at such a site without so much as a mention of the male victims would easily have their judgement clouded. I take exception to your assertion that to do so would be 'wasting time'.
    Originally posted by girl with sharp teeth
    This place caters for all victims of domestic violence. Don't bring your personal feelings into this because they are irrelevant.

    And it was at your last 4 words that I realised that for as long as there are women with your views out there, my crusade in promoting the rights of male victims will carry on Ad Infinitum.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    GWST, to say that personal feelings are irrelevant presents quite an obvious paradox.........i think russ makes some good points, how men suffering abuse is seen as laughable to some, which drives the very men who need help from seeking it.....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Russ T Bitz



    You may well think that "everyone knows" men can be victims but certainly not everyone sympathises. I used to work in the IT room of my local YMCA and there used to be a coffee morning for the single and lonely mothers. One week there was a discussion on domestic violence and they discussed the recent local case of a male victim who was abused for 4 years by his ex-wife. I overheard the women in the coffee morning cackling like witches at him saying "it's about time men had a taste of their own medicine".

    well thats awful, and thats certainly not got anything to do with/in common with feminism.
    I dont think feminism ever claimed all women were nice
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by apollo_69
    GWST, to say that personal feelings are irrelevant presents quite an obvious paradox.........i think russ makes some good points, how men suffering abuse is seen as laughable to some, which drives the very men who need help from seeking it.....
    why should a debate on feminism turn into how hard done by men are.
    Why should this important issue keep being detracted from?
    Are womens rights not important in comparison to mens?
    By all means campaign for mens rights. Men do not generally have the raw deal in this society. Yes there are male victims of domestic violence, but why should we not campaign against violence against women when it is so much more common, widespread, accepted, brutal etc etc etc.
    Its an important issue.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Russ T Bitz
    I am not saying they should be catered for - but anyone looking at such a site without so much as a mention of the male victims would easily have their judgement clouded. I take exception to your assertion that to do so would be 'wasting time'.

    Yeah but if somebody assumed that women could not be aggressive towards men, then they wouldn't be very bright would they.

    It's like say... doing an article on how Bangladeshi kids are being targetted in [area X] in school.... Yes there could be Chinese kids in [area y] suffering from discrimination too... But the article is about the Bangladeshi kids even though the Chinese kids have just as much rights.

    However, male incidences of domestic violences should be brought more in to light as well as male rape. Everyone should have the same rights.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    GWST, I think you will find, has given a link to an excellent charity based in the North East who protect the victims of domestic violence and abuse, regardless of gender or sexuality. So to say that she is "ignoring" male victims of DV is laughable to say the least, and is actually slanderous.

    I went and got a little statistic for you all: out of an estimated 635,000 incidents of domestic violence reported in 2001/2, 81% of the victims were women. According to Stanko (2000), 85% of all DV is perpertrated against women, and of the remainder 7% of all DV victims are male victims attacked by other men. Women are twice as likely as men to be victims of repeat, i.e. sustained, domestic violence. 42% of female homicides in the UK in 2001/2 were committed by partners or former partners, compared with 4% of male homicides.

    Source.

    Nobody is claiming that DV directed towards males is not an issue, but it is far more a problem for women than it is for men.

    Anyway, none of this answers the question: why should a website designed by women, for women, in order to help women, start prattling on about male domestic violence? If you are a male being attacked in the home by a spouse, you would be looking on a feminist website for advice.

    Russ, you carry on your crusade for the male DV victims, its very noble. But don't forget the 85% of DV victims that are women, eh?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kermit
    Russ, you carry on your crusade for the male DV victims, its very noble. But don't forget the 85% of DV victims that are women, eh?

    I'm sorry, perhaps I've worded my posts in such a way which have given the impression I'm saying that there are more male victims than female however for the life of me I really cannot think that I have.

    I have never wanted to give the impression that men get abused more. If that's how I've come across then I apologise.

    My point is if you were told told there'd be a programme on TV tonight on Domestic Abuse and you were a female victim of such, you could be sure that your issue will be catered for. However if like me you are a male victim and you heard of such a programme, you'd be resigned in to knowing your issue is not likely to be mentioned.

    Doing a web search on domestic abuse will bring up far more articles on help for women. This will ONLY make it more difficult for male victims to feel as if there is help available for them.

    How many domestic abuse counsellors are male? Statistally there may well be a need for few men but that again will make it difficult for males to feel like their situation will be taken seriously.

    The fact that there are more females victims of domestic abuse is no reason for the media's bias against men in this instance.

    Women are the minority when it comes to getting executive positions in work so there are countless campaigns to help and assist them, why don't us males get the same concessions to support us against violent wives/girlfriends?

    Women are in the minority in politics so there are talks of female-only shortlists.

    Can men (evidently the minority in domestic abuse cases) expect the same kind of treatment when we report our cases?
    originally posted by girl with sharp teeth
    You have no idea what my views are Russ, so I suggest that you expand on them no further before you begin to embarrass yourself.

    You're right, I don't know your views but when you dismiss my experiences and feelings as 'irrelevant' then to be completely honest, I don't want to know them.

    I've dealt with women in the past with attitudes such as yours towards male victims and found them to be totally irrational and unreasonable so I no longer waste my time in trying to make them see sense.

    And if furthering the rights of male victims of domestic abuse is 'embarrassing' myself then long may it continue.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by girl with sharp teeth
    I'm not saying your views on male victims or how they are catered for are irrelevant

    Ah, ok, my apologies, I misunderstood.

    So can I assume you will withdraw the following comment?
    Originally posted by girl with sharp teeth
    This place caters for all victims of domestic violence. Don't bring your personal feelings into this because they are irrelevant
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Thank you, that's all I needed to hear.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Russ T Bitz
    My point is if you were told told there'd be a programme on TV tonight on Domestic Abuse and you were a female victim of such, you could be sure that your issue will be catered for. However if like me you are a male victim and you heard of such a programme, you'd be resigned in to knowing your issue is not likely to be mentioned.

    Male victims of DV are disproportionately represented, if we're going to be honest. Male victims account for only 15%, of whom 7% are attacked by other men anyway, and they get more than 15% of the coverage about DV. Open any newspaper and see for yourself.

    Oh, and look on the website GWST linked to. Seems pretty fair to me; every possible victim is covered, and is offered help and advice by counsellors relevant to them. So I'm not quite sure what it is you're moaning about.

    The fact that there are more females victims of domestic abuse is no reason for the media's bias against men in this instance.

    Yes it is. You'd expect 85% of the coverage for 85% of the victims, would you not?

    Women are the minority when it comes to getting executive positions in work so there are countless campaigns to help and assist them, why don't us males get the same concessions to support us against violent wives/girlfriends?

    Women are in the minority in politics so there are talks of female-only shortlists.

    Can men (evidently the minority in domestic abuse cases) expect the same kind of treatment when we report our cases?

    wtf?

    Men are not in the minority position when it comes to DV. 88% of all DV perpetrators are men. Sounds pretty much the dominant position to me.

    Besides, you miss the point entirely. The workplace campaigns aim to help the majority of the victims, and in DV, just like in workplace discrimination, the majority of the victims are women. At the hands of men. Geddit?

    I've dealt with women in the past with attitudes such as yours towards male victims and found them to be totally irrational and unreasonable so I no longer waste my time in trying to make them see sense.

    Are you being deliberately obtuse?

    Male victims are IRRELEVANT to a website dealing with female issues. Why should a website for women deal with male victims? I wouldn't expect football365 to start waffling on about chess at length, and it's the same principle extended to this.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Russ T Bitz
    And it was at your last 4 words that I realised that for as long as there are women with your views out there, my crusade in promoting the rights of male victims will carry on Ad Infinitum.

    Don't be ridiculous. GWST has a fantastic record on here, don't pretend that because you've brought something that is totally irrelvant into the debate she's wrong and you're right. It's like saying in a debate about women that they don't cater specifically to blacks, or muslims and is therfore racist.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There's nothing wrong with the media exposing the figures which show women as being the (numerically) greater victims of DV - it seems to be a fact and of course there needs to be help available for them.
    Men are not in the minority position when it comes to DV. 88% of all DV perpetrators are men. Sounds pretty much the dominant position to me.

    Read my posts again - I'm talking about male victims of DV being in the minority. I can't believe you honestly thought I was suggesting that females were in the minority in this!!!

    I have nothing against a site which promotes help for female victims - what I DO object to is a site which treats the subject as if males do not suffer from it.
    Don't be ridiculous. GWST has a fantastic record on here, don't pretend that because you've brought something that is totally irrelvant into the debate she's wrong and you're right. It's like saying in a debate about women that they don't cater specifically to blacks, or muslims and is therfore racist

    It's interesting to note that the vast majority of my detractors on this subject are women. Possibly because women refuse to see the world through the eyes of a male victim of DV. Quite understandibly of course as the media like to paint that kind of picture. This just shows how easily people are misled when the subject is reported this way.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Russ T Bitz
    It's interesting to note that the vast majority of my detractors on this subject are women. Possibly because women refuse to see the world through the eyes of a male victim of DV. Quite understandibly of course as the media like to paint that kind of picture. This just shows how easily people are misled when the subject is reported this way.

    Don't try to slander my record or my ability here either. You are using this exactly the same way I said.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hehe, I wasn't trying to do either.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Russ T Bitz
    I have nothing against a site which promotes help for female victims - what I DO object to is a site which treats the subject as if males do not suffer from it.

    You're just being deliberately stupid now.

    Find me where it states, or even implies, that males do not suffer from DV on that website. Come on, it's a challenge, and simple omission doesn't count either, otherwise rathergood.com is blatantly anti-male because it doesn't deal with male victims of DV.

    It's interesting to note that the vast majority of my detractors on this subject are women. Possibly because women refuse to see the world through the eyes of a male victim of DV. Quite understandibly of course as the media like to paint that kind of picture. This just shows how easily people are misled when the subject is reported this way.

    I'm not female.

    And you're talking shit.

    Find me a quote where GWST has stated that male victims of DV are not as important. It's another challenge for you.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've said it's "as if" they are of the impression that males aren't victims. Challenge number 1 met.

    She says my feelings on the matter are irrelevant. Read back about 10 posts for that.

    Challenge number 2 met.

    And thanks for the abuse. Very grown up of you.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Learn to
    1. read
    2. debate
    3. admit you're wrong
    4. read
    5. debate
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