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Objective!!

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    Hmmmm...isn't god a human invention?

    Depends on your perspective. People believe in an actual entity that is God, not some kind of control system used in a fanatacist government.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    Hmmmm...isn't god a human invention?

    Logically it would appear so, but who knows. Whether there is a moral absolute or not is based on whether god is or isn't.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Spliffie
    It's all theoretical...Christians will believe the moral absolute has been set out in the bible, Muslims will believe the moral absolute has been set out in the koran...athiests believe everything is relative, agnostics aren't sure either way.

    Our government and judicial system still operate with a system largely based on the moral absolute.

    Everything about moral absolutes is theoretical, and doesn't exist in actuallity. And to be fair, even those with faith experience doubts about the absolutes.

    I agree that our society operates based on the existance of a moral absolute. Which does not actually exist.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Fiend_85
    Depends on your perspective. People believe in an actual entity that is God, not some kind of control system used in a fanatacist government.

    Not what I'm saying. But never mind. I'm pissed and going out again in a bit...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Fiend_85
    Everything about moral absolutes is theoretical, and doesn't exist in actuallity. And to be fair, even those with faith experience doubts about the absolutes.

    I agree that our society operates based on the existance of a moral absolute. Which does not actually exist.

    Are you not a Christian? :confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Spliffie
    Wrong on both points :p

    Moral absolutes comprise more than murder, rape and assault - the holy war clause doesn't affect the moral absolute at all, it gives a moral absolute to countenance war.

    Religion provides the moral absolute. God says what is right, what is wrong - there are your divine moral absolutes given by a higher power.

    Without god/religion there are no moral absolutes, because nothing is given from a higher power - everything is relative.

    Morality can't come from God.

    Religious people would say God has perfect judgement. Even still a moral code formulated by God would still be arbitarily chosen.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Our government and judicial system still operate with a system largely based on the moral absolute.

    Politics has nothing to do with moral philosophy!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Spliffie
    Are you not a Christian? :confused:

    Sorry what's the question? Cos cramming that 'not' in there confuses issues.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by kaptin pikarrrd
    Morality can't come from God.

    Religious people would say God has perfect judgement. Even still a moral code formulated by God would still be arbitarily chosen.

    Chosing to follow a religious code is dependant upon the individual, not the apparent absolute of God.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Fiend_85
    Chosing to follow a religious code is dependant upon the individual, not the apparent absolute of God.

    So you follow a religious code but don't actually believe in god?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Spliffie
    So you follow a religious code but don't actually believe in god?

    I was replying to the comment made by kaptin pikarrrd, which has nothing to do with me specifically.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by kaptin pikarrrd
    Morality can't come from God.

    Religious people would say God has perfect judgement. Even still a moral code formulated by God would still be arbitarily chosen.

    Religion (certainly Christianity) is based on the notion that god has provided humanity with a set of morals that should be adhered to in order to reach heaven. A Christian can therefore not subscrive to morality being objective - their religion by nature is based on moral absolutes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Spliffie
    Religion (certainly Christianity) is based on the notion that god has provided humanity with a set of morals that should be adhered to in order to reach heaven. A Christian can therefore not subscrive to morality being objective - their religion by nature is based on moral absolutes.


    A christians own morality may be objective, that does not mean that morality at large is.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Fiend_85
    Sorry what's the question? Cos cramming that 'not' in there confuses issues.

    You seriously don't know what the question is?? :eek2:

    Are you a Christian? From your posts I seem to understand you are, yet you don't believe in the moral absolute which appears to be a contradiction.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Spliffie
    You seriously don't know what the question is?? :eek2:

    Are you a Christian? From your posts I seem to understand you are, yet you don't believe in the moral absolute which appears to be a contradiction.

    I am a christian, but havn't been for my whole life. I can admit that there is no moral absolute in humanity because there are so many different perspectives. It even varies from one christian to the next. Only God has true objectivity, that doesn't mean that I do.

    And to be fair you could have been asking 'are you a christian' or 'are you an atheist' seeing as i haven't explicitly said before.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Spliffie
    Religion (certainly Christianity) is based on the notion that god has provided humanity with a set of morals that should be adhered to in order to reach heaven. A Christian can therefore not subscrive to morality being objective - their religion by nature is based on moral absolutes.

    So therefore from a Christian perspective morality comes from God, which I don't believe is true.

    Morality simply is a convention created to promote social order.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by kaptin pikarrrd
    So therefore from a Christian perspective morality comes from God, which I don't believe is true.

    Morality simply is a convention created to promote social order.

    You've contradicted yourself. Are you trying to say you don't believe in where christian morality comes from, or that you don't believe in God.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No that's not what I mean at all.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by kaptin pikarrrd
    No that's not what I mean at all.

    Well you've failed to make yourself clear. Try again.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Fiend_85
    I am a christian, but havn't been for my whole life. I can admit that there is no moral absolute in humanity because there are so many different perspectives. It even varies from one christian to the next. Only God has true objectivity, that doesn't mean that I do.

    And to be fair you could have been asking 'are you a christian' or 'are you an atheist' seeing as i haven't explicitly said before.

    If you believe there is no moral absolute, then why are you a Christian? It's a total contradiction. The whole basis of Christianity and other religions (islam etc) is that the moral code is absolute - it's laid down by god. You either follow that code and are rewarded for being "good", or punished for being "bad". If Christian morals are objective, how can anyone be punished?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Objective and absolute are synonyms.

    I simply said morality doesn't come from God in my view. Again, I believe morality is a convention created by humans to promote social order.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Spliffie
    If you believe there is no moral absolute, then why are you a Christian? It's a total contradiction. The whole basis of Christianity and other religions (islam etc) is that the moral code is absolute - it's laid down by god. You either follow that code and are rewarded for being "good", or punished for being "bad". If Christian morals are objective, how can anyone be punished?

    I don't think I am the moral absolute. I believe that god is. Not that there is no moral absolute. Being christian has nothing to do with my debating ability and I can argue that moral absolutes don't exist in society because there are so many different opinions on who God is and even if such a thing exists. Moral absolutes only exist in true objectivity, which other than God, doesn't exist because everyone has a different opinion.

    Christians now accept divorce in a way that simply wasn't thought of a few decades ago, and I'm sure the same will happen for homosexuality. Not to say it's approved of, just that it won't be such a big deal. In that sense christians cannot claim moral objectivity.

    I look to God to provide moral objectivity in my life, it doesn't mean my life always achieves that kind of standard. In fact it clearly doesn't because the bible tells me I shouldn't swear, which I do, on a regular basis.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Fiend_85
    I don't think I am the moral absolute. I believe that god is. Not that there is no moral absolute. Being christian has nothing to do with my debating ability and I can argue that moral absolutes don't exist in society because there are so many different opinions on who God is and even if such a thing exists. Moral absolutes only exist in true objectivity, which other than God, doesn't exist because everyone has a different opinion.

    Christians now accept divorce in a way that simply wasn't thought of a few decades ago, and I'm sure the same will happen for homosexuality. Not to say it's approved of, just that it won't be such a big deal. In that sense christians cannot claim moral objectivity.

    I look to God to provide moral objectivity in my life, it doesn't mean my life always achieves that kind of standard. In fact it clearly doesn't because the bible tells me I shouldn't swear, which I do, on a regular basis.

    Actually I've been meaning "relative" as opposed to objective but fuck it, it's going to be too confusing to back-track to what i was referring to originally.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Spliffie
    Actually I've been meaning "relative" as opposed to objective but fuck it, it's going to be too confusing to back-track to what i was referring to originally.

    Yes, very confusing. Nevermind eh? I had some fun.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Fiend_85
    Yes, very confusing. Nevermind eh? I had some fun.

    Actually, just to clarify, what would define as "objective" and "absolute"?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    religous? god gave you free will.
    the will to obey and serve him or not.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Spliffie
    Actually, just to clarify, what would define as "objective" and "absolute"?

    Absolute is total and complete, without restrictions on erm, authority, certain, not dependant on anything else, pure.

    Objective is an outside perspective without distortion of bias or personal feelings.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by morrocan roll
    religous? god gave you free will.
    the will to obey and serve him or not.

    Indeed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.


    A prize to someone who can tell me where this is from.
    george orwell
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by morrocan roll
    george orwell

    which book?
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