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The Africa Problem?

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Will Africa always be the place to look for an example of people suffering? Will there ever be stable responsible governments who can compete on a global scale with Europe and the US?

Or will it always be a bit shitty?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The situation will improve eventually. We all have short memories but in historical terms Europe was up to the same tricks not that long ago.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Your fragmenting all the threads today arent you.

    Personally I really dont see any country in Africa getting its act together any time soon. And thats really depressing. Even South Africa, too many of the middle classes left once it all started to go wrong.

    Reasons? AIDS is a big one, history of corruption, unreliable harvests.....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by bongbudda
    Your fragmenting all the threads today arent you.

    Personally I really dont see any country in Africa getting its act together any time soon. And thats really depressing. Even South Africa, too many of the middle classes left once it all started to go wrong.

    Reasons? AIDS is a big one, history of corruption, unreliable harvests.....


    They don't call me postwhore for nothin! At any rate, i thought it'd be nice to discuss things generally.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The Ivory Coast looked like it was doing alright up untill relatively recently. Oh well.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: The Africa Problem?
    Originally posted by Fiend_85
    Will Africa always be the place to look for an example of people suffering?

    No more than anywhere else. Look at the Balkans, and Asia and you will find people suffering too, for example.

    I've just been trying to think of African nations with stable Govts and I can only come up with North African examples... does anyone else know of anything different?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Re: The Africa Problem?
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent
    No more than anywhere else. Look at the Balkans, and Asia and you will find people suffering too, for example.

    I've just been trying to think of African nations with stable Govts and I can only come up with North African examples... does anyone else know of anything different?

    it's the cliche though isn't it?
    When you don't eat your dinner your mum always used to say 'there are children starving in africa who'd never leave a scrap on their plate!'

    North africa isn't so great is it? Bizarrely I always think of eygpt as middle east. Is that because of a population similarity?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Senegal, South Africa, Zanzibar and Botswana all seem pretty stable politically.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jim V
    Senegal, South Africa, Zanzibar and Botswana all seem pretty stable politically.

    They all have economic and social problems on a massive scale though don't they?

    The current SA president, Mbeki, wouldn't admit there was an AIDs problem because it would be like admiting that blacks are inferior to whites to the world.

    That can't be good government surely?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I wrote an essay on this for uni. Basically it came to the conclusion that much of Africa was stuck in a vicious circle -

    rich country gives money to poor african country - african country thinks "oh look we're gonna get money from Britain and France anyway why bother reforming" - african country goes downhill

    World Bank gives money to African country - African country has to abide by the rules of the World Bank - rules of World Bank don't help African country very much - African country goes down hill.

    There was more to it than that, but that was the general idea.

    I think the basic problem is that Africa needs outside help to get out of its crisis. But other countries are unwilling to give help unless they think they're going to get something out of it foir themselves, so they impose all sorts of conditions to their loans which make things worse.

    Not to mention the CAP problem........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well certainly the export subsidies dont help. But full scale removale of the CAP isnt a realistic option.

    As for South Africa, its a real shame, such an amazing place somewhat ruined by crime.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    anyone remember henry kissinger?
    in the seventies he made a number of speeches that made my blood boil ...i was convinced he was the most evil human being alive.
    he said that for america to have free access to resources and to aleviate growing poverty ...america would have to consider depopulating vast areas of the coninent by whatever means were available ...scary shit.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by morrocan roll
    anyone remember henry kissinger?
    in the seventies he made a number of speeches that made my blood boil ...i was convinced he was the most evil human being alive.
    he said that for america to have free access to resources and to aleviate growing poverty ...america would have to consider depopulating vast areas of the coninent by whatever means were available ...scary shit.

    Of the continent of africa?

    What was he taking?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by bongbudda
    Well certainly the export subsidies dont help. But full scale removale of the CAP isnt a realistic option

    Perhaps not, but fair trade needs to be developed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Certainly, but it would be both unfair and un-eccologically sound for there to be no import restrictions.

    Fair trade should mean fair trade, if a nation keeps our animal and enviromental standards then no import tarrif's if it doesnt, then we should impose them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Fiend_85
    Of the continent of africa?

    What was he taking?
    sorry yes ...the african continent.
    his reasoning was there was to much misery there to have a hope in hell of ever solving the problems so ...depopulate the place by whaytever means ...giving full access for american companies.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by morrocan roll
    sorry yes ...the african continent.
    his reasoning was there was to much misery there to have a hope in hell of ever solving the problems so ...depopulate the place by whaytever means ...giving full access for american companies.

    Huzzah Monty python
    Henry Kissinger
    How I'm missing yer
    You're the Doctor of my dreams
    With your crinkly hair and your glassy stare
    And your machiavellian schemes
    I know they say that you are very vain
    And short and fat and pushy but at least you're not insane
    Henry Kissinger
    How I'm missing yer
    And wishing you were here


    Henry Kissinger
    How I'm missing yer
    You're so chubby and so neat
    With your funny clothes and your squishy nose
    You're like a German parakeet
    All right so people say that you don't care
    But you've got nicer legs than Hitler
    And bigger tits than Cher
    Henry Kissinger
    How I'm missing yer
    And wishing you were here
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by bongbudda
    Fair trade should mean fair trade, if a nation keeps our animal and enviromental standards then no import tarrif's if it doesnt, then we should impose them.

    See how the whole vicious circle thing starts again?

    I see your point, and it is a good one.

    Perhaps there is no answer to Africa's problems then?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well we put tarriff's on anyway, so this would only serve as an incentive. It wouldnt make it any harder for farmers than it is now.

    And with the rule being applied to all countries wanting to import into the UK it would be completely fair trade.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by KoolCat
    See how the whole vicious circle thing starts again?

    I see your point, and it is a good one.

    Perhaps there is no answer to Africa's problems then?

    nothing but time
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Fiend_85
    nothing but time
    ...and kissingers dream will have come true.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by morrocan roll
    ...and kissingers dream will have come true.

    Sorry what?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Fiend_85
    Sorry what?

    that in time his dream of depopulating africa will come true

    Can't really think of any African country that has a stable middle class with no major social or economic problems, i dunno why but when people say Africa i always have an image of starving kids on a desert, even though this isn't completely true its just something i always thought.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    For your reading pleasure (though requiring adobe) a report on african development from the world bank page 21-23 have a foreword that is where you attention should be drawn.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by bongbudda

    As for South Africa, its a real shame, such an amazing place somewhat ruined by crime.

    most places have been ruined by us in some form:(
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Check out this thread, we've argued blame nearly to death.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Fiend_85
    nothing but time

    how long have they had all these problems though? how much longer can they wait??
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by nelly_bar
    how long have they had all these problems though? how much longer can they wait??

    It's the same problems Europe used to have, problem is they didn't keep up when Europe and the USA shot forward on the industrail revolution. Mostly because of the slave trade and European colonies.

    I have no idea how much longer they can wait, we shall just have to wait and see.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Fiend_85

    I have no idea how much longer they can wait, we shall just have to wait and see.

    until we're in our graves no doubt..although it would be funny if the situation flipped..and we had all their problems!
    well, it wouldnt be funny actually
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Fiend_85
    ... Mostly because of the slave trade and European colonies...

    Pleeeaase Fiend_85 drop this slavery-colonies crap! They have no relation to industrial revolution. Slavery was common in relatively poor agricultural southern states of America but not in wealthy industrialised northern states. Colonies were pure losses. You can read any British liberal economist of 19th century about this - maintaining the Empire was definitely not a profitable business. Colonies and slavery turned imperial giants Turkey, Spain and Portugal into poorest countries of the Europe while countries that never had colonies ( western part of Germany, Switzerland, Sweden) and even countries that were colonies themselves ( Finland, Czechoslovakia, Latvia) developed quite fast.
    Do you think maintaining ‘democratic Iraq’ is good for American economy? It is profitable only for a handful of pet companies and Washington bureaucracy but not for the most American businesses.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by LabRat
    Pleeeaase Fiend_85 drop this slavery-colonies crap! They have no relation to industrial revolution. Slavery was common in relatively poor agricultural southern states of America but not in wealthy industrialised northern states. Colonies were pure losses. You can read any British liberal economist of 19th century about this - maintaining the Empire was definitely not a profitable business. Colonies and slavery turned imperial giants Turkey, Spain and Portugal into poorest countries of the Europe while countries that never had colonies ( western part of Germany, Switzerland, Sweden) and even countries that were colonies themselves ( Finland, Czechoslovakia, Latvia) developed quite fast.
    Do you think maintaining ‘democratic Iraq’ is good for American economy? It is profitable only for a handful of pet companies and Washington bureaucracy but not for the most American businesses.

    i never thought of that myself, good point, do you yourself have any opinions on why Africa is in the state its in?
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