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With no income tax..

2

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by LabRat
    “The rich only can afford education and health care in free market system” bla-bla-bla. If the government didn’t distribute shoes the whole nation would walk barefooted. This kind of logics

    So who does pay for the NHS, education, roads etc? :confused: certainly if you look at their expenditure it would seem they are getting a lot of money from somewhere.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Face it. More taxes will mean better services available for anyone and everyone in the long rung.

    Why?

    Face it. Everyone could afford education if there were no state involvement.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by TheShyBoyInTheCorner
    So who does pay for the NHS, education, roads etc? :confused: certainly if you look at their expenditure it would seem they are getting a lot of money from somewhere.
    Working people pay! Who works they pay, who doesn’t work are paid!
    So hard to understand?
    If you at University you don’t work so you don’t pay for your education.
    Your former schoolmate who is not at uni but is working on a farm or at assembling belt on at building pays for your education.
    It is ‘compassion’ and ‘help to the poor’.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by the sole liber
    Why?

    Face it. Everyone could afford education if there were no state involvement.

    But could everyone afford education as well as health care, the money to fix that patch of road outside their house, someone to collect and dspose of their rubbish, someone to keep their parks (relatively) tidy, a local community swimming baths etc etc? Education is just one aspect of modern society paid for through taxation. And personally I would never ever have a problem with paying taxes to allow someone else to go to university because that person could one day use those skills to help me in life.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by LabRat
    It is ‘compassion’ and ‘help to the poor’.

    These are bad things then? :confused: - you are proposing we have no taxes, but if that's the case then who pays for all the services in the country? Some of the services you could go private, for example health (although that does cost a lot, I saw an american quote that was $1000 per month). What about lone parent families, how do they afford to send their children to school? They can barely afford to feed themselves without benefit from the state.

    Anyway, say I was put through university by a tax paying person, I would get a better paid job after this and would pay back to society. Without this system there would be far less people going to university, earning far less money, and so there are more demand for labour jobs until there are none left, resulting in more poverty.

    In my opinion, people are entitled to free education, free healthcare, free public services. If you don't like the idea of this you could always vote conservative who have traditionally tried to reduce taxes, but as you can see most people vote for labour - knowing that they will increase taxes because public services improve!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BumbleBee
    But could everyone afford education as well as health care, the money to fix that patch of road outside their house, someone to collect and dspose of their rubbish, someone to keep their parks (relatively) tidy, a local community swimming baths etc etc? Education is just one aspect of modern society paid for through taxation. And personally I would never ever have a problem with paying taxes to allow someone else to go to university because that person could one day use those skills to help me in life.

    In a free market, rubbish collection might be CHEAPER than it is now!

    With no income tax, you'd be FREER to fix their house!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by the sole liber
    In a free market, rubbish collection might be CHEAPER than it is now!

    With no income tax, you'd be FREER to fix their house!
    But there would be no incentive for people to pay to have their rubbish collected - not everyone would do it and so that would impact on the environment.

    And as for your second comment - whose house?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What about lone parent families, how do they afford to send their children to school? They can barely afford to feed themselves without benefit from the state.

    With freedom comes respsonsibity? A good proportion of single parent families arise due to reckless behaviour. If you want to sleep around, then accept the consequences of your actions! :cool:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by LabRat
    Why people pay taxes?
    First explanation is simple- just try not to pay. You’ll have great fun…
    But this is not enough. Why people don’t vote for a party which would abolish taxes?
    Because of greed.
    Everyone hopes their neighbour will pay more so they will get a lot at his expense.
    All babbling about compassion, help to the poor, common good etc. is lie and bullshit. If this was truth they’d prefer not to pay taxes to have more money to help the poor and other stuff.

    You might be a self centered uncaring little shit, but a lot of us aren't.
    Thank fuck.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by LabRat
    State doesn’t pay for anything, including roads, education, street lights, the police so on. You pay. State just takes away your money and pretends it is done for your own happiness.
    Do you still don’t understand how the system works? From every five pence of taxes one goes to feed taxmen, one goes to special interest groups, one is wasted, one is stolen. So you have the fifth part of your money in return and are bloody happy that the government cares about you. Poor fools…
    “The rich only can afford education and health care in free market system” bla-bla-bla. If the government didn’t distribute shoes the whole nation would walk barefooted. This kind of logics

    You're living in a very strange world!
    Yes, ultimately we all pay for these services. Thats because we all use them.
    You want to live in a world where only the rich and powerful survice. Well fuck that! I want to live in a society where we look after those less fortunate than us.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by the sole liber
    Why?

    Face it. Everyone could afford education if there were no state involvement.


    Bollox! People on minimum wage? People with no job?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aspartame
    I'm sure there'd be no minimum wage, and as for those with no job... :no:
    The world would be a bleak place, even for those with money.
    If everyone could afford everything as sole liber suggests, who would do the jobs like collecting rubbish, street cleaning etc? Nobody, because we'd all be well off enough to emply someone else, but there wouldn't be anyone else to do it!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by the sole liber
    With freedom comes respsonsibity? A good proportion of single parent families arise due to reckless behaviour. If you want to sleep around, then accept the consequences of your actions! :cool:

    A good proportion of lone-parent families also arise from the death of one parent, or from rape, or from failed contraception. Why should these people 'pay the price' even though they've done nothing wrong?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by TheShyBoyInTheCorner
    A good proportion of lone-parent families also arise from the death of one parent, or from rape, or from failed contraception. Why should these people 'pay the price' even though they've done nothing wrong?

    Yes, and also because one partner walks out on another. It is wrong to assume all single parents are irresponsible.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    Bollox! People on minimum wage? People with no job?

    Minimum wages are a nonsense.

    If you have no job, then what's stopping you from getting one?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by TheShyBoyInTheCorner
    A good proportion of lone-parent families also arise from the death of one parent, or from rape, or from failed contraception. Why should these people 'pay the price' even though they've done nothing wrong?

    Failed contraception equates with doing nothing wrong?!

    Society would care for people like these.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by the sole liber
    Failed contraception equates with doing nothing wrong?!

    Society would care for people like these.

    How would society care for them if nobody paid taxes, if the money they had was only for themselves? And you can't really tell someone it's their own fault if they used contraception and it failed can you?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by the sole liber
    If you have no job, then what's stopping you from getting one?

    Lol!! Sometimes it really isn't that easy, even when you're prepared to do anything at all.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The fact still stands that in a free market demerit goods with negative externalities are overvalued and merit goods with positive externalities are undervalued.... Taxation helps to bring a better balance.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by the sole liber
    If you have no job, then what's stopping you from getting one?

    What about people like my dad who are recovering from major surgery, he's not going to be able to work for a long time. He's 61, even under the current state when he's no longer elligble for sick pay he would have to go back to work. My brother doesn't think that's fair so we are moving to Spain and he's going to support us, but if my brother wasn't there how would we survive seeing as there are 5 of us living in this house, one sick and my mum looks after us all!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Rocksteady
    The fact still stands that in a free market demerit goods with negative externalities are overvalued and merit goods with positive externalities are undervalued.... Taxation helps to bring a better balance.

    Sorry, I didn't understand that :confused: can you put it in plainer language lol.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I cant be bothered explaining it go and look it up on the internet!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by TheShyBoyInTheCorner
    Sorry, I didn't understand that :confused: can you put it in plainer language lol.
    I think Rocksteady is a trumped up economics student who knows fine well that the average person wouldn't have a clue what he is on about. The fact he can't link it to real life situations to make it plain and simple says a lot to be honest.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    its cause you cant put it in plain english without it losing meaning....


    i think hes trying to say that having tax etc attempts to correct the imbalances to make society more merit based than aristocratic
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Merit goods are things that supposedly aren't desirable to be traded in the free market. These are things like health and education
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Here is some info on what it is all about....

    With merit goods - the state is concerned with maximising the consumption of certain goods which it deems to be desirable; goods and services where the social benefits exceed the private benefits, e.g. Education and Healthcare are assumed to generate positive externalities.

    Higher government spending on these merit goods should yield a positive social rate of return which leads to an improvement in total economic welfare.

    There is a case for some form of government intervention to encourage increased consumption of merit goods. This might take the form of an explicit government subsidy to reduce the private marginal costs of consumption and cause an expansion of demand.

    De-merit goods are those goods or services that create negative externalities when the product is consumed. This reduces the social marginal benefit of consumption and also leads to potential market failure through over-consumption.

    The government normally chooses to tax those products that generate negative consumption externalities. Or it may choose some form of regulation as an alternative strategy.

    De-Merit Goods

    Merit goods are 'good' for you. Demerit goods are thought to be 'bad' for you. Examples are alcohol, cigarettes and various drugs. The consumption of de-merit goods can lead to negative externalities which causes a reduction in social economic welfare.

    The government normally tries to reduce consumption of de-merit goods. Consumers may themselves be unaware of some of the negative externalities that these goods create - they have imperfect information.

    Merit goods provide positive externalities but if left wholly to the private sector, it is likely that merit goods will be under-consumed. Partly this is because individuals do not understand or appreciate the social benefits that can result from consumption of education and health services to name just two examples.

    De-merit goods create negative externalities which leads to a reduction in social economic welfare. The government may decide to intervene in the market for these goods and impose taxes on producers and / or consumers. Higher taxes cause prices to rise and should lead to a fall in demand.

    The government often provides merit goods "free at the point of use" and then finances them through general taxation.

    Examples of merit goods that are largely state provided include primary health care available to people through the National Health Service, books borrowed through the services of local authority libraries.

    Merit goods are products that tend to be under-consumed by the free market because of information failure. Those people consuming education and health care, may not fully appreciate or value accurately how much private benefit they are deriving from the consumption of these services.

    An individual will find it difficult to predict the monetary benefits of a good education and, as a result, because of the lack of information they may choose to curtail their schooling. Merit goods may also have important external benefits.

    Examples

    Industrial training by firms: This can reduce the costs faced by other firms and has important effects on labour productivity

    Education: A well-educated labour force can increase efficiency and produce other important external benefits, such as lower unemployment and greater international competitiveness. Policy makers are realising the increased returns from investing in human capital and the beneficial impact it can have on the supply-side of the economy

    Health provision: Improved health provision and health care reduces absenteeism and creates a better quality of life and higher living standards

    Arts and sporting participation: visiting museums and theatres can increase knowledge. The external benefits of increased knowledge are hard to quantify, but probably important. Sporting participation will lead to a healthier nation and improve team-working skills

    Developers of a new housing estate spend money cleaning up contaminated land which encourages the regeneration of the surrounding area

    Where substantial positive externalities exist, the good or service may be under-consumed by people or under-provided since the free market may fail to take into account their effects. This is because the marginal social benefits of consuming the good > private marginal benefits.

    A market failure problem is likely to exist and persist because the benefit to society in terms of higher productivity and a higher GDP is un-priced by the market. This leads to the private optimum level of output being less than the social optimum level of production. The consumer does not take into account the external benefits of higher education (they may not be aware of the social benefits or may underestimate their own private benefits – this is an example of information failure)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by the sole liber
    Minimum wages are a nonsense.

    If you have no job, then what's stopping you from getting one?

    Hello? Real world calling!!!!
    Lots of things - medical problems, psychological problems, lack of education, self esteem issues, substance misuse problems, lack of skills, lots of things.
    You libertarians don't really understand people, do you?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Even in the current society, getting a job isn't difficult.

    In our libertarian society jobs would be MORE plentiful!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :rolleyes:

    As I said - you don't know shit about people.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You libertarians don't really understand people, do you?

    i've spent some time amongst the druggy/homeless, I'd call a lot of them sturdy beggars in that they're idle, arrogant and know how to exploit the system. Limited sympathy from me
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