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What would you say about British Vanunu?

I mean the man who gave up secrets about Israel’s nuclear weapon and spent 18 years in prison.
My question: what would you say if some British man did the same?
Is he a traitor or a hero?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    AS ignorant as I may sound, the guy was from Isreal himself and gave up his own country's secrets to a rival country?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In 1986 Israeli nuclear technician Mordechai Vanunu told about Israel’s secret nuclear program to Sunday Times’s journalist. Then he was kidnapped by Israeli secret police in Italia and spent 18 years in prison. He was released recently.
    Read for example this BBC discussion about him http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/3645079.stm
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    He is not a traitor- he's a whistleblower who did not subscribe to the very sad "my country right or wrong" mantra and who exposed Israel's clandestine and dangerous arsenal of illegal nuclear weapons.

    At no point did the disclosure of Israel's weapons put the country in peril of any kind- despite absurd claims to the contrary- so he cannot be considered a traitor.

    At a time when we claim to be fighting to make the world a safer place it's about time Israel's nuclear arsenal was at the very least declared and monitored, and the disgusting and illegal-as-hell biological and chemical weapons it also has destroyed immediately.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Traitor.
    What if his actions HAD had more dire consceqences?
    If anyone did it here I'd hope they'd get 18 years in prison.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How could it possibly have had more dire consequences? That's more or less impossible. If anything he made Israel 'safer' by letting the world know it had amassed an arsenal of nukes.

    I suppose you consider all the Iraqi defectors who have given 'evidence' against Saddam Hussein for the last 12 years despicable traitors as well?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why are they a traitor if the British government did something illegal? Are we meant to agree with whatever the governments wants to do, because it's the patriotic thing to do?

    It wouldn't make them a hero, but they wouldn't be a traitor.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It seems I didn‘t explain clearly what I’d like to know.
    I’m not asking about that Israeli guy, I’m asking what would you say if some British scientist gave an interview to Jerusalem Post about British secret arsenals of some weapon of mass destruction. It’s easy to say this Israeli guy is a peace fighter especially if you don’t like Israel’s policy…
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If Britain had been constructing new generations of nuclear weapons in secret then I'd be the first one to congratulate the scientist who blew the whistle.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin


    I suppose you consider all the Iraqi defectors who have given 'evidence' against Saddam Hussein for the last 12 years despicable traitors as well?


    To me no, but to their own people there's every chance they are hated.
    It's all well and good saying patriotism is stupid, but at the end of the day the most important thing that people identify with is their country.
    I couldn't care less about him blabbing his secrets, but thats because he's not British. My country comes first because I have to live here.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But yet we must all understand that country and government are two entirely different things.

    That is why Iraqi defectors (or those who told the truth anyway) were not really being traitors to the country and people of Iraq when they defected and gave detailed accounts of Saddam's past weapons programmes and catalogue of human right abuses. They might have betrayed the government and the President of Iraq, but certainly not its people.

    The same applies to Vanunu.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Save for the fact that the lies which were sold to the public to justify the illegal invasion of Iraq in fact came from these "exiles" in order to get the western war machines to back their own sleazy bid for illegitimate seizure of control.

    At the end of the day, comparing Vanunu to those pampered Iraqi exiles who lived in luxury in the west whilst their countrymen felt the full brutality of repeated invasions and over a decade of privation (largely maintained by Washington on direct advice from these selfsame exiles), is like comparing apples and oranges.

    Vanunu exposed the illegal activities of a rogue government and he was right to do so in the interests of humanity.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    They might have betrayed the government and the President of Iraq, but certainly not its people.

    The same applies to Vanunu.

    The vast majority of the people wouldn't see it like that. Remember, a lot of Iraqis still show their support to this day for Hussein, and if they really loved the defectors then they would return home, surely?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    If Britain had been constructing new generations of nuclear weapons in secret then I'd be the first one to congratulate the scientist who blew the whistle.

    Same here.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Whowhere
    , but at the end of the day the most important thing that people identify with is their country.
    I

    No it bloody ain't.....

    Also a question for your patriotism?

    Why is that doing something against the government or the state is always being a traitor? This is not at all the same as putting the 'nation' in danger.

    As a British person I want to know what kind of stuff the military of this nation that we all pay for to protect us is doing. Thus anyone who reveals what they are doing when they do not say so themselves is a good person.

    people who stick with the 'Israel is good because they are a democracy' line ought to think about this and reflect on the nature of the democracy they expound in Israel.........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg
    As a British person I want to know what kind of stuff the military of this nation that we all pay for to protect us is doing. Thus anyone who reveals what they are doing when they do not say so themselves is a good person.

    It satisfies your curiosity, reassures you that your defense forces are actually working, but to people who would want to attack britain it gives them important information that they can use to attack us where we are vulnerable.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How so?

    A mi.litary spokesmen makes a broadcast:

    "We are spending £10 billion on a new range of chemical warheads"

    Our enemies now know we have chameical warheads how are we weaker?

    Would you really be comfortable not knowing whether we had nukes or not? Do you really think we would be safer if the military had kept our nukes secret?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg
    How so?

    A mi.litary spokesmen makes a broadcast:

    "We are spending £10 billion on a new range of chemical warheads"

    Our enemies now know we have chameical warheads how are we weaker?

    Would you really be comfortable not knowing whether we had nukes or not? Do you really think we would be safer if the military had kept our nukes secret?

    I guess not, but say someone had said that we are keeping secret nuclear weapons in :chin: Manchester or something. I don't see the need to talk about defense really, it's not like we are a vulnerable country.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    we are a vunurable country due to us housing 1st line of americas missle sheild with no defence of our own, and with how our government is conducting its foreign policy



    and if we said we didnt have secret nukes and some guy said we did just for the sake of letting the world know we werent as innocent, then he shouldnt have been imprisoned as it was for a common good

    but if he done it to profit and/or broke the official secrets act, then he should have been arrested

    double standards,but thats secret police for you
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg
    How so?

    A mi.litary spokesmen makes a broadcast:

    "We are spending £10 billion on a new range of chemical warheads"

    Our enemies now know we have chameical warheads how are we weaker?


    It's known as M.A.D.
    The whole principle of a nuclear or chemical deterrent is based on MAD. Mutually Assured Destruction.
    A terrorist won't in his right mind set a nuke off in London, because under the laws of MAD he'd see his home country vanish in a flash of nuclear fire. I can guarantee as well, if the prime minister was killed in a nuclear explosion power would be transferred to the military. They won't take shit.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So then, rather than endangering Israel, Vanunu did his country a favour by announcing to the world Israel was nuclear!

    Whichever way you look at it, Vanunu didn't commit an act of treason or put Israel in any danger whatsoever.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    Whichever way you look at it, Vanunu didn't commit an act of treason or put Israel in any danger whatsoever.

    Whatever. Still a stupid cunt though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A hero to many Israelis Jacqs.

    Are they also stupid cunts? Or simply (to repeat certain people's favourite expression) 'self-hating Jews'?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Who the fuck is talking about "self-hating Jews" (which isn't an expression I've ever used?
    And who the fuck was mentioning other Israelis?

    I am merely talking about him as a person.
    As a person I really doubt he'd be a hero to anyone except his mother who raised him to be as he is.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A hero to people who are against nuclear proliferation and unbridled militarism and state secrecy?

    Apparently our own govts are against proliferation of WMD so they should be keen.....:rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
    Who the fuck is talking about "self-hating Jews" (which isn't an expression I've ever used?
    And who the fuck was mentioning other Israelis?

    I am merely talking about him as a person.
    As a person I really doubt he'd be a hero to anyone except his mother who raised him to be as he is.
    Where did I suggest that it was you who used such expression?

    But believe it or not the expression is widely used in neo-con circles, be internet forums, websites or even sectors of the media. Basically if you are Jewish and you commit the unforgivable temerity of saying or doing something that goes against the Israeli government or the zionist movement then you are obviously a 'self-hating Jew'. Since they can hardly accuse Jewish people of being anti-Semite (although incredibly it has been known to happen) this is what they come up with. Any Jewish person who ever dares to raise their concerns about the Israeli government's catalogue of atrocities, land appropriation or stockpiling of WMDs must clearly be some sort of disturbed self-hating person.

    As for "who the fuck was mentioning other Israelis", well it was me. You were saying how much of a stupid cunt the man is in your eyes, I was merely pointing out that it doesn't seem to be the case with some Israelis, who appear to see him in a rather more positive way. I mean, if the crowds greeting him outside jail are anything to go by his supporters appear to be as numerous if not more than those jeering. No small feat considering the absurd amount of smearing and negative bias the man will no doubt will have had to endure from the government and much of the media.

    Then again I've never met him myself so he could perfectly be a stupid cunt at a personal level.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    Since they can hardly accuse Jewish people of being anti-Semite (although incredibly it has been known to happen) this is what they come up with.
    Probably because such a thing exists and has indeed existed.
    Then again I've never met him myself so he could perfectly be a stupid cunt at a personal level.
    Not that I have met him, and I certainly don't hope to either, as I don't have a lack of encounters with rough and tasteless people.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Having not met him how can you judge him as "rough and tasteless"??

    That is incredibly presumptuous of you Jacq, especially given the sordid manner in which he was kidnapped by his own government and denied due process and humane treatment.

    To endure that as he has done shows considerable strength of character!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    Having not met him how can you judge him as "rough and tasteless"??

    On the way he has chosen to act and present himself.
    Just like one does with people in real life...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Please be so kind as to show some clear evidence that he has not presented himself with dignity and character in the face of all he has suffered at the hands of secretive state aparatus. By all accounts he has conducted himself exceptionally well.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I am not going to waste my time on digging up old articles, and writing an essay with examples, when I shouldn't be on this site, let alone on the internet right now.
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