Renationalisation

Former Member

the taxation burden under thatcher increased by almost 10% whilst useful public spending went down in efficiency cuts, hmm the ideal way of making money hmmmmmm

Former Member

The only people who really benefited through the Tories' endless boom and bust periods were the very rich, shareholders and speculators.

The rest (i.e. about 80% of the population) actually ended up worse. Quite why anyone who is not a millionaire would want to support the Tories is really beyond me.

Talk about turkeys voting for Xmas...

Former Member

EXACTLY
(apart from people who like think theyre middle class vote tory)

Former Member

Originally posted by LabRat
Are You ( I don’t mean The Sole Liber of course) SERIOUSELY Think Margaret Thatcher Was A Free-Market Libertarian?

She reduced the state control on the market, created institutions and laws etc that allowed free functioning of markets?

If someone does this they clearly believe that freer markets are better than what existed before.

Just because she didn't completely remove the state or whatever bullshit you 'libertarians' would like to see doesn't mean she wasn't incline towards free markets.........

Former Member

Originally posted by LabRat
I don’t know what to do, to cry or to laugh. Thatcher as an economical libertarian?!! This level of ignorance is not acceptable even for left-wing forums!!
Thatcher was a typical socialist and she shared all Marxist hate to individual freedom.
<snip>

I don't need to read anymore. Thatcher a socialist?
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

You twat. :rolleyes:

Former Member

Oh look

Thatcher's free market economics strengthened the overall economy and created a growing middle class, but widened the gap between rich and poor.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/10/newsid_2541000/2541071.stm
(italics mine)

Former Member

And this

Her political and economic philosophy emphasised free markets and entrepreneurialism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thatcher
(italics mine)

Former Member

Originally posted by Kermit
As always, the argument about Keynesian economics comes down to an argument a five-year-old would be ashamed of.

As with everything, there are good and bad things.

Take railways. Whilst everyone is bleating about how expenisve the railway is, nobody takes a moment to look at GNER, who operate the main London- Leeds- Newcastle- Edinburgh line. They have increased services, brought in new trains, and pay £20million a year to the Treasury. But the success is always conveniently forgotten.

A lot of industries that were privatised were right to be. British Airways are better as a private company, Rover are better as a private company, BAe are better as a private company. The coal is no worse in private hands than it was in national hands, despite the moaning of the NUM; the telecom industry is no worse in private hands, and nor are the suppliers of gas and electricity.

However, a lot of things should never be about profit. The postal service shouldn't be, the water shouldn't be, the gas and electricity infrastructure shouldn't be, and nor should the railway infrastructure. I'm still undecided about the buses, to be quite honest; the buses are crap, but no worse than in the days of the National Bus Company. National Express have certainly improved since privatisation, at any rate.

Unfortunately it does depend on whether you believe that the state should provide literally everything, and hang the expense, or if private initiative is better. In key services, such as education, health, the utilities and transport as a general rule nationalisation is the way to go; in industry and the service sector privatisation is the way to go. Like it or not, profit is the only incentive people have to do well and be efficient; look at Rover now, and compare them to the pathetic, militant, British Leyland.

My thoughts exactly. Yes it makes sense for utilities like gas and electricity to be nationalised monopolies, but the likes of Rover, which make consumer goods should be left in private hands.

The railways are a bit of a grey area. Ont he other hand they worked well enough in the pre-nationalisation "big four" era. The problem is the over-complicated structure created by the 1997 privatisation.

Former Member

Originally posted by Jim V
Surely your not suggesting it would be better to have a second house providing checks on the executive that were all selected by the executive themselves? That's not a step in the right direct, it's the very worst outcome. I can't help feel you'd have more chance of convincing a lord who got his seat 500 years ago of something that was wrong in a government bill than a member who was appointed last Tuesday by Blair.

I totally agree. Blair's "reforms" are nothing but a cynical attempt to fill the Lords with his own supporters.

Former Member

Originally posted by Captain Slog
My thoughts exactly. Yes it makes sense for utilities like gas and electricity to be nationalised monopolies, but the likes of Rover, which make consumer goods should be left in private hands

I agree with that.

Former Member

atleast Thatcher did what she said , instead of blabbin on like blair and bush then doing many things completely oposite.

hicks

Former Member

But what she did shafted whole communities of people, communities which still haven't recovered.

Former Member

but you must admit she did what she said she was going to do, never beat around the bush, and ther was a few things she did that were good, i think.


hicks

Former Member

There is a limit to the value of honesty though. I'd rather have a liar who does a limited amount of damage than a brutally honest person who acts like a little despot and screws everyone over.

Former Member

i dont feel she screwed anyone over, at the time she thought she was doing the right thing,

like bush and the weapons of mass destruction, and

blair highering university top up fees,

similar things thinking they were doing the right thing but blatantly not doing the right thing at all.

hicks

Former Member

Bollocks. She blatantly knew she was fucking the working class.
Same as Bush blatantly was gonna fuck Iraq, whatever the excuse and whatever the consequences.
Same as Blair will go along with whatever Bush wants even if he knows its wrong.

Former Member

Thatcher was an evil witch from hell who single-handedly destroyed more families and increased poverty for more people than any other Prime Minister in British history.

An extremely nasty, ultra-right wing, god-bothering free market fundamentalist who couldn't give a fuck about the welfare of people (even by infamously denying there was such a thing as society :rolleyes: ) and who was the catalyst for the most inhuman and greed-driven period in modern Britain.

An apartheid and fascism apologist who counts racists and murderers as personal friends.

The champagne is on ice...

Former Member

I suppose that at least you knew where you stood with the Conservatives .... but who knows what the f*ck Labour are up to. For a party that is supposed to look out for the people, we've been shafted good and proper loads of time and if we raise any objections or point out these blatant shortcomings, we're branded as right wingers and Tories. I just want fair, open, honest governement and Labour are just not that.

Former Member

The clock is ticking for the wicked witch. Perhpas she could pop her clogs on the same day as her chums Ronald Reagan and Augusto Pinochet.

Now that would be some celebration!

Former Member

Thatcher was voted in 3 times with handsome majorities,never deposed by the People, her policies resonated with much of UK's populace.

Glug all the champagne you wish, she has her place in History, her detractors and imitators cannot take that away

It's a popular pose to wish the worst upon her, many who do were crawling in their nappies in her heyday

Former Member

For every person who admires Thatcher in this country there are 3 haters.

And why wouldn't it be so? The woman fucked over 80% of the population. Child poverty went up from 20% to 33%. Etc etc.

The day she goes to hell will see the highest number of champagne corks flying outside Christmas in British history.

Former Member

Aladdin

For every person who admires Thatcher in this country there are 3 haters

Source?

it might apply in certain circles but in UK population as a whole, I doubt it

Former Member

Source? The real world.

The 3-to-1 ratio is probably innacurate-simply because I don't know the precise figures- but I don't have the slightlest doubt (and neither does anyone I know) that many more people hate her than admire her.

How could it be any other way? Who benefited from her policies and who was left worse off?

Former Member

Thatcher is arguably the Prime Minister who has come closest to being deposed by the people.

Former Member

Originally posted by Aladdin
Source? The real world.

Then how did she win 3 elections? The maths just don't add up ...

Former Member

By disenfranchising opposition voters through the poll tax which many refused to pay and subsequently lost their right to vote.

I was working for the Tories in the European Parliament back in the day and recall vividly the upset there was amongst most Euro-Tories over this poll tax and the resultant removal of untold numbers from the voting registers either voluntarily or for failure to pay the tax.

Added to that the massive protests that followed (Trafalgar Square 1990, 300,000 people) essentially signalled the end of the Thatcher reign for all she tried to do to ensure it would never end.

The woman was, is and until her death shall always be a self absorbed demagogue with a lust for power. That she has managed to actively maintain a following in the Westminster Tory benches only goes to show how incapable she is of buggering off gracefully into the history books.

Former Member

Aladdin

The 3-to-1 ratio is probably innacurate-simply because I don't know the precise figures- but I don't have the slightlest doubt (and neither does anyone I know) that many more people hate her than admire her.

ie you don't know

circles you mix in are probably quite unrepresentative of 'The real world.'

Where would UK be had callaghan won or, Foot!!!????:eek:

Former Member

Originally posted by ladymuck
circles you mix in are probably quite unrepresentative of 'The real world.'

Are there? Perhaps, I don't know. I generally mix with the man in the street. Mostly working class but some middle class too. Ordinary people. And even the comfortable middle class people I know are happy to admit that Thatcher was a vicious, selfish malicious woman whose extreme greed and free market mentality harmed the people of this country in unprecedented levels.

Then there is the little issue of her love and support for such pleasant regimes as the Apartheid and Pinochet's Chile.

Perhaps you move along City of London circles then ladymuck? I'm sure there are a few thousand City boys who think of Thatcher as their Goddess. :rolleyes:

Or perhaps you mix with the other group of people... those who like Thatcher thought highly of the Apartheid and of brutal fascist dictators.

Which one is it?

Former Member

Originally posted by ladymuck
circles you mix in are probably quite unrepresentative of 'The real world.'

Unless he mixes with some alien race, then I find this very difficult to believe.

In fact, I would be interested to hear your definition of "the real world"...

Former Member

Thatcher wasn't as good as people claim. Thatcher wasn't as bad as people claim. There always has to be realism in these discussions.

The trade unionists brought it on themselves by holding the country over a barrel for twenty years, and people were sick of it. This goes further back than Thatcher; Heath got in on an anti-union ticket, and was deposed when he didn't fulfil his election pledges.

The mining communities brought it on themselves with their illegal strike; the National Grid was forced to change suppliers in order to keep the power stations running, and they changed to coal from Australia and Romania that was relaible and cheap. The mining industry had also been dying a death for twenty years or more, regardless of what the NUM tried to claim- if everyone has gas central heating, there isn't much demand for coal is there? Especially when power stations tend to run on lower-quality coal from opencast collieries, such as around Selby in East Yorkshire; deepcast coal tended to be reliant on the domestic market, which evolved away from it.

The market meant that the steel and ship indutries in the UK died, as there was no-one there to buy the ships from them. The only industry I blame the Tories for killing is the train-building industry, and that was Major's doing not Thatcher's.