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Well we were talking about academic intelligence, I presume you're refering to life skills and the ability to be practical and think well etc. which is of course important.
Are employers who prefer Oxford degrees short-sighted? Depends what they're looking for. If they're looking to recruit the country's top academics, then no it doesn't. If the emphasis is more on personal skills then that's a different story.
There are a lot of very smart people on my course. There are also lazy people who don't seem to give a shit. I don't think that's anything to do with the uni but the individual.
Entrance requirements for my course at a new university are actually higher than the requirements for many courses at old universities.
A university is just a building.
That's just a PC quote again, that implies there is no difference between universities. There is. I wouldn't put it past labour to come up with something like that as their new slogan.That's like saying a house is just a house, but are you telling me there's no difference between a one bedroom flat and a mansion? Come on....
It shouldn't. But how many of us can actually say that we aren't edged on by trying to compete with our peers as well as the want of good grades. I know that I compete very definately with others on my course, generally my friends as they do with me. There's a very definate I want to do better than you attitude. If you're at uni and assocating with people who aren't as intelligent or good at the subject then you are less likely to acheive perhaps as well as if you had better students around.
Also if the students are of a poorer quality around you who are you gonna bounce ideas off when you get stuck. Argue a point out with etc. I sit many times with friends and we just argue around a topic till we fully understand it. Or if one of us gets stuck on a project we know we can phone another and get some hints about it. THough there are students on my course that just wouldn't be able to happen with because they don't have the understanding/intelligence to do that. (And yes intelligence and understanding are different things but both are needed in a group situation.)
Yes PussyKatty a university is just a building on the surface. But what it's made up of gives it it's reputation and dictates who goes etc. If it was just a building why have you changed? It isn't so black and white unfortunately.
If a university was 'just a building' then it wouldn't matter where you applied, but it does.
Define "political correctness".
No, YOU came out and said that a First from a former poly isn't worth as much as a First from a "traditional" university, for the simple fact that the person at the former poly is "less inteligent".
Now I have a challenge. Given that university degrees are independently moderated by HEFCE, so they are all equal, could you please explain to me how someone who goes to a university full of "less intelligent" people will come out with a poorer degree than the equivalent from a "traditional" university full of "intelligent" people.
If all the people at the former poly are "less intelligent" and, as kazbo argues, harder to learn alongside, then I am curious as to how their 1st-class degree is worth less than a person who has a 1st from a university where learning is "easier"? Using YOUR OWN DEFINITION a student at a fomer poly has to work HARDER- meaning that the degree is worth MORE, not less.
I'm interested to see how you can still explain your position now
But if the Dog and Duck beat Manchester United in the FA Cup, it would be more of an achievement than if Manchesater UNited beat the Dog and Duck in the FA Cup.
Which is the whole God-damned point.
And would that happen? Would it hell. I did not only say that a first from a poly is worth less simply because the person is, on the whole, less intelligent, it's because the university has less standing because it hasn't built up the same reputation or tradition.
If they are all equal, why are people scrapping to get into top universities, why don't they just settle for going any old place? The point I'm making is there is a notion going round that it doesn't matter where you go to university, which is a load of rubbish. To be honest I think they're a just some touchy people round here who go to ex-polys, and before you start moaning again, I said SOME not ALL! Also when this thread of conversation started, it we weren't necessarily initially talking about their comparative level of difficulty on paper, but the perception and value of the outside world, employers in particular, which DOES matter.
Nobody cares which college you go to for A Levels, why is it suddenly considered important when it comes to universities? It's widely accepted that an A Level student at a fee paying independent sixth form with less than 10 students per class will find it easier to get good grades than a student at an inner city further education college with 30 students in a class. Guess which type of college I went to.
If I got a first (I hope so) from my degree at a new university, I would really hope and expect that employers would recognise the amount of hard work I have put in. If they thought "she went to that uni, she must be thick", I would be disappointed at their narrowmindedness and quite sickened actually.
Life isn't all about future employers however. What about making your own business, being your own boss? In that case it wouldn't matter where your degree, if you had one, came from.
As I have been a student at both an old and a new university I feel I have a good perspective to discuss the issue.
It's not as clear cut as saying "people at such and such university are more intelligent than at that one". Universities excel in different areas. People also choose universities for various reasons. Many people on my course are mature students with family ties to the area.
I know from my own experience that I am achieving far more here, and am in a more supportive and better learning environment here, than I was at Cardiff uni. At Cardiff I felt like I was on a treadmill, none of the teachers knew me, there were hundreds of people in lectures, and it felt irrelevant.
As I have said several times, I know it is not as black and white as that, I have said loads of times I realise there are exceptions (like you), I'm talking about the vast majority. Again, mature students are not the majority either.
I haven't said either that people who go to polys are thick, you're saying you hope employers wouldn't view you that way, well I'm not saying they would and I agree that it would be short-sighted of them. All I am saying is, that 'original' universities have had longer to build up a reputation, establish themselves, learn from their mistakes, and grow. This may mean in some cases (not all) that students from old unis are at an advantage when they graduate in the employment market. That's pretty much all I'm saying.....I really don't have as much of a problem and as many issues here as you may think, I am pleased for you that you are happier where you are, being happy is of course hugely important. All the best......
It might the way United are playing at the moment.
Why do I get the feeling we're going round in circles here? Basically we're all agreed aren't we that:
1) Yes the less inteligent students do go to the ex poly's rather than the traditional uni's, but there are exceptions to that generalisation.
2) A first from any university on paper is of the same standard. 3) However, some employers, especially in the "over populated" subjects like law, will be swayed by which university you went to if all other attributes are as strong in 2 candidates.
4) It shouldn't matter but probably does to some extent.
Oh and PussyKatty, when I was looking for jobs before coming back to uni. I got some jobs because I'd gone to a state Grammar school which had an 11+ exam rather than to the local comp. Unfortunately employers even differentiate at that level as well as over universities.
I do have to add though that as the ex poly's get to be seen more and more as true uni's, their standings are become more widely accepted. For example companies round this area have a great liking for Liverpool John Moores for computing degrees in preference over Liverpool Uni's computing degrees. But no we are far from being able to say that all universities are viewed equally by everyone, however the day will come and some of the ex poly's, but not all, are already performing better than the traditional universities in a range of subjects.
It's the same stigma that is held around the traditional uni's though. The same "must be more intelligent" spiel etc. It might be pathetic but it happens.
When it comes down to it though. If 2 candidates are of equal stature exam wise and in every other required way. How do you differentiate and choose one over the other. It's only natural to look to their background and yes make a biased decision on what you can see of that persons background, through their cv.
I have been shown application forms for top jobs at Mars UK, for example, and which university you went to is a small box on the last page. What you did at university took up the preceding three.
I actually know a lot of people who have gone to former polies who have done significantly better at A'Level than otehrs at Durham.
But hey, there's no point in trying to argue with blatant prejudice and bigotry. I go to Durham, t'missus goes to Northumbria- it obviously means I'm significantly more intelligent than her :yes:
There is only any point comparing departments.
If i become an economist the people employing me don't care if the uni I am from had very good law or biology or engineering departments, they don't care if the university has been around for a long time.
They care about the quality of that department at this point in time.
They also don't care about the average intelligence of people at that uni or in that deparrtment, they care about your ability to do the job, nothing else.........
I don't think it's any coincidence that the people arguing the opposite to this are the ones who ahven't actually gone to university yet.
Which uni you go to is irrelevant, it's what you do there that counts.
Thats all I wanted/needed to know about this