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Hear the whistle blowin!
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Well well, confirmation upon confirmation as revelations emerge to confirm further what we who oppose the manipulation of our society and the sacrificing of our soldiers for lies have said from the start.
The grand coalition rattled off by our Commander in Thief now exposed as the cajoled and spied upon and quietly "diplomatically" horsewhipped into line. Dark tidings indeed as we see that those who call the UN useless are the ones who purposely sabotaged it and subverted it. Little surprise it can't be effective when we show only bad faith toward the international community.
These are the marks of an agenda of perpetual war and expansionism that even our armed servicemen should eventually come to see is a meatgrinder just using them and spitting them out to further dishonourable aims.
Truth is the record is clear that we the US have routinely subverted the UN on any legitimate attempt to act against tyranny in areas where we were benefitting and continue to benefit from such tyranny. How many more revelations before our friends at mil.com will acknowledge that this administration is strutting all over their willingness to serve for legitimate defence of our nation but not for lies?
Or is the thirst for war more powerful in the soldier's mind than simply ejecting those who represent our nation in bad faith and holding the next to account to make the UN effective with policing authority and ability and work through true multilateral channels.
http://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=40&num=10339&printer=1
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,6903,1143550,00.html
http://www.ocnus.net/artman/publish/article_10643.shtml
(a long but worthy read and it takes the whole system to task not only neo-cons.)
A much more valid reason to eschew Kerry as much as Bush and find ourselves a real progressive option.
The grand coalition rattled off by our Commander in Thief now exposed as the cajoled and spied upon and quietly "diplomatically" horsewhipped into line. Dark tidings indeed as we see that those who call the UN useless are the ones who purposely sabotaged it and subverted it. Little surprise it can't be effective when we show only bad faith toward the international community.
These are the marks of an agenda of perpetual war and expansionism that even our armed servicemen should eventually come to see is a meatgrinder just using them and spitting them out to further dishonourable aims.
Truth is the record is clear that we the US have routinely subverted the UN on any legitimate attempt to act against tyranny in areas where we were benefitting and continue to benefit from such tyranny. How many more revelations before our friends at mil.com will acknowledge that this administration is strutting all over their willingness to serve for legitimate defence of our nation but not for lies?
Or is the thirst for war more powerful in the soldier's mind than simply ejecting those who represent our nation in bad faith and holding the next to account to make the UN effective with policing authority and ability and work through true multilateral channels.
http://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=40&num=10339&printer=1
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,6903,1143550,00.html
http://www.ocnus.net/artman/publish/article_10643.shtml
(a long but worthy read and it takes the whole system to task not only neo-cons.)
A much more valid reason to eschew Kerry as much as Bush and find ourselves a real progressive option.
0
Comments
The era of the Pentagon Papers has returned and with it, further indictment that our leaders have ignored the lessons of our own past and continued to foist lies and misinformation to enhance their own grasp on power.
{OK, so I'm playing dumb a little, but you get my drift}
I have laid out the larger principle at work here, namely willfull undermining of the UN followed by subsequent claims of its inherent ineffectiveness. Small wonder when two leading members actively sabotage it and its integrity.
In point of fact, all those past issues you claim the UN as being singularly useless in addressing were by and large subject to similar sabotage or UN veto in order to ensure that US/UK interests (and most certainly Israel's interests) remained unhindered by legality or convention.
If that isnt enough, i suggest you take the time to read through all ive said and provided in my first post. The UN isnt the problem, our routine bad faith is.
MoK, I am surprised at you. Do you NOT know that ONLY the US and UK have ever spied, in the history of the world?
You see... the collaborator still has a hard-on for those who stiffled its generous stipend from Baghdad, and the collaborator continues its crusade to betray the interests of those two nations.
Self loathing is a terrible psychosis to observe, is it not?
Face it, without a gun and some spoon fed propaganda about "the enemy" you are cub league all the way.
Youll even attack your own countrymen for daring to unveil political corruption (though you claim to distrust the political establishment yourself). Heaven forbid you should have to acknowledge the lies and scheming of your idols.
Hypocrit!
Oh and once again nice evasion of the issue still awaiting a response.
In fact the transcripts that Clare Short read were almost certainly not aquired by MI6 directly, the NSA is on the UN's doorstep - its far more likely that they were the ones who 'bugged' Annan's office and the intelligance was simply passed on to the British.
Every member of the permanent security council actively spies upon each other, its a fact, just not one that needs to be blurted out by idiots like Clare Short.
The point here concerns the integrity of the proponents for war, namely the US and UK, who, whilst claiming to be actively endeavouring to achieve a peaceable resolution to an impending (and now realised) crisis of international military interventionism, were in fact undermining the process through duplicitous back channel cajoling, spying and diplomatic blackmail which clearly demonstrates their disingenuous intent from the very start.
Try not to forget the long winded rationale and PR put forth in the media by our two nation's leaders and all the supposed respect for international law upon which they based their demands for immediate action. Such pontification rings ever more hollow with each new confirmation of that which was cogently argued by opponents of war for corporate hegemony from the very start, that this was fully intended and planned long before 9/11 and that the agenda of discrediting the UN is plain to see and an even clearer indictment of our own international criminality and duplicty, however evil other nations may be as well.
Trying to hold up Washington and London as bastions of magnanimity, justice, truth and goodness as the misinformed public generally tends to believe, by hearkening to the argument that others are doing it too sounds as irresponsible and intellectually dishonest as it does eminating from the lips of a child caught red handed. Other nations were not the ones claiming moral legitimacy in a push for war to supposedly advance the "rule of law", ours were!
Time to call a spade a spade and hold our lying, deceitful and corrupt leaderships to account for their wrongs as well.
If you can honestly sit there in front a your computer and say that each of the UN countries (apart from the US and UK) was acting in the interests of anyone but themselves, if you can say that none of them (except the US and UK) were spying to another, if you can say that no-one (apart from the US and UK) was willing to use any form of bribary, if you can honestly argue any of that then your criticism holds water.
If not it is just another rant. Fell free get it off your chest if you like, but what the US and UK have done is no different to what any other country would have, had they got the "power" to do so. In this case they didn't...
You're referring to the war against Iraq I take it?
Yes and it applies well to the very nature of our governments whom you seem so willing to excuse for lying to the public and making a farce of the very "rule of law" which THEY, not "other nations" were drumming into the public consciousness with all the contrived and now repeatedly and demonstrably proven false "intelligence".
Simply refuse to acknowledge that the wrongdoing of our leaders should be held to account as much as those of the villains they collude with, regardless of their brutal repressions, until such time as any dare cut the puppet strings, eh MoK?
Don't dare seek for progressive awakening of our societies, that would upset this wonderful status quo you seem so ready to defend. For shame.
By dismissing every revelation in turn, as you have systematically done to date, you seem blissfully unaware that so doing undermines the intellectual integrity of your own claim that the UN is irrelevant and ineffective by failing to aknowledge that our government's have in fact be largely to blame fo any such inefficacy. Can't expect multilateralism to achieve just ends of non-militant conflict resolution when the giant and its lapdog systematically veto repeated attempts (as in the case of addressing Israel's own wrongs amongst other documented cases) to hold nations accountable or, as in this instance, spy upon those attempting to avert the illegal invasion of a sovereign nation in the absence of legitimate threat.
Like Than, you seem intent on rushing back to the safety and non-discussion of "saddam was a bad man" as if that makes undermining the "rule of law" okay for us. Hell, lets just invade and kill everyone we dislike and conquer all nations which have resources we want, might makes right! (Thanatos certainly subscribes to that).
I feel sorry for the world you seem content to bequeath to your children once our leaders have finished dismantling any possible check on unrestrained imperialist aggression. The blowback in that era will be a legacy of shame for the majority's failure to judge ourselves by the same measure according to which we deem others worthy of destruction and co-option.
Excuses for our evil only further encourage our leaders to continue creating straw men for later removal without any real concern for the suffering that will occur in the interim.
A truly laudible stance you adopt indeed.
Actually I don't "refuse to acknowledge" wrong doing, more that I accept some areas because I appreciate that global politics and the power game are never as clean nor will I accept that the US and UK are the only "bad guys" on the block.
They are not the route of all evil as you would have us believe.
That is just bollocks I'm afraid. The UN is ineffective and therefore the US and UK (and other nations which you conveniently overlook) take steps to secure their national security.
Do you want another list of nation where UN intervention has been lacking, or perhaps you would like me to remind you that I have stated that the fact that the US and UK are able to act like this actually proves my case.
That the UN cannot take action against either nation for [what you claim is] a breach of international law really supports what I have said all along. If the UN is not powerful enough to do something here, then it really is pathetic wouldn't you say?
When I see a court ruling to that effect I will agree with you. But the law on this issue is not as clear cut as you would like, is it?
I guess that the rule of law is more important than the removal of a dictator then. Nice to know which side of that fence you sit.
And before you go into another rant about how we support other dictators, let me remind you that I have never supported my nations stance there either.
Like not doing anything because it might breach the "rule of law" you mean...?
Please tell me exactly which laws have been broken by the US/UK spying on the UN, and who enforces these “laws”.
No, I’m not saying that everyone else is doing it, so why shouldn’t we. I am saying that it is how diplomacy and international politics works. It has since time began…
Here’s your starter for ten…
Cambodia
Tibet
Zimbabwe
Uzbekistan
Rwanda
The Balkans
Nicaragua
Vietnam…
Hang on, doesn’t that list include places where I know that the US has a big hand in the problems? Well, yes it does. So why doesn’t the UN act against them?
If the UN Charter/mandate doesn’t allow them to act, or doesn’t give them the power to act then that just underlines what I am saying. If they are powerless to act at times when they need to, what it the point of their existence?
There are several basic “rights” which the UN is supposed to uphold and they should have the power to do this, irrespective of national borders.
Oh, and the murder of your own citizens is something which those “rights” cover. Therefore acting against someone like Saddam should not be an issue where borders apply…
So, if they hadn’t claimed to be “upholding the rule of law” then you would have been okay with their actions?
Which takes me back to the UN. If global consensus was enough then I would agree with you, but you have to act on that consensus. I don’t think that any nation would have disputed that Saddam was “a bad man” but, like you, to many people were just happy to let him continue on his merry way. Either the UN stands for something, or it doesn’t….
Really, so he hadn’t killed any of his citizen between 1991 and 2003 then?
Oh and inspections were only continuing when Saddam allowed them to.
Prepared to, but not able to. That is a major difference. Had they been able to, they already would have, but we all saw what happened in 1991 when they tried…