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Drug policy - My manifesto.

There has been much talk on here recently about the coming change to the law regarding cannabis and I have had to defend my position regarding my views on the issue. So I am going to attempt a fully rounded manifesto on what should happen to drug policy. This is somewhat for my own benefit so if any of you actually read it, thanks.

First of all we have to look at the current situation, we have rising problem drug use of all kinds, binge drinking is up, same as use in most other drugs. From this I think it is easy to assume that the current situation isn’t working as well it might, compared to other countries around the EU and World we have higher problems.

My biggest concern is the gap between so many people and the forces of law and order the drug laws create. There is now a whole generation of people who see the police as something to fear and avoid. This has to have a hugely negative social impact and it is indeed this fear that has led to several deaths from OD because people do not want to report it because of the fear of arrest.

Of course if an all out policy of legalisation were put into place over night then there would indeed be a rise in the problems surrounding drug use. However I am suggesting a slower approach.

The biggest and most important step is to change the way that education works; the dangers of each drug should be put forward carefully and clearly for kids to understand. This should be as part of a new ‘Life Skills’ class which will start quite young and include sexual education, relationships, talks on depression, financial help, how to understand tax, brief political run down, healthy eating, exercise and drugs. In this way maybe we could get kids coming out of school able to balance a budget, etc.

The second, yet equally important measure is to increase the number of residential treatment centres. These would work on a drop-in basis, or your doctor could refer you there. Huge efforts should be made to make sure that these always had places open or at least there was a short waiting time for them, this is the only way to get more addicts to come forward. These places would basically be medical treatment centres where people could be weaned off the drugs. They would then be given help in moving back into society, help finding a job etc. and the help would continue until they felt that they were adjusted.

There would also be wider prescription options open to doctors with wider prescribing of heroin and the use of GHB for alcoholism.

Building on this there would be gradual phasing out of custodial sentencing for any offender found with personal amounts of any drug. If they were caught with addictive drugs such as cocaine, crack, heroin etc. then they would be referred to an assessment interview. At this their needs to be evaluated and they could be recommended for residential treatment or they could be given community service or a series of drop in sessions.

There should be moves to make cannabis legal, it should be held at Class C for some time while the public were informed about the possible dangers and more research was done. From there it could be moved down to a civil offence where the small-scale production and possession would not be a criminal offence.
There would then be a very strict system of licences sold to private companies who wish to set up a coffee shop. These will make sure that quality is controlled, no other drugs are sold and that there is as little impact on the area as possible. There will of course be a tax upon the goods, but the price will remain stable. All the money raised through this will be re-invested into drug rehabilitation. There will of course still be some black market with people growing their own but due to the competition the quality all round will improve.

This system will be under constant review and checked to see how it is impacting society as a whole and the individuals who use cannabis.

When the cannabis shops are up and running and the new education system have been in place for several years the government should move onto the phenethylamines such as MDMA, 2CB and others. These if used under guidance can be relatively harmless and given the current use patterns are being abused anyway.

MDMA would be first; it would be available through local health centres where individuals would be allowed to purchase the drug after having all the effects, side effects and dangers explained to them. There would be a very tight control on the amount sold to each individual and of course quality would be pharmaceutical.
This limited governmental supply has to be more desirable than the current supply of pills that have flooded the market in the UK. Even if it were somewhat of a chore to get them wouldn’t most people go to the bother if they knew they would be getting top-notch stuff?
And of course as with cannabis there would be some black market supplies but the addition of the government source quality would increase due to competition.
Investigations into MDMA and its possible use in therapy would take place and it if found useful then it would be made available to doctors in the drug rehabilitation centres mentioned above.

This would be researched, investigated and vetted to see if it was a success; if it were then there would be more of those drugs released through the same channels. 2CB, 2-T-C7 and others can be of huge help to people, but because of their dangers they would have to be tightly controlled.

In this way the police could be left to pursue dealers of Cocaine and Heroin, the numbers of which would hopefully begin to wane. They would also have much more time to concentrate their efforts of crimes against people, theft, assault etc.

Your comments please, if you have read down this far.
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It sounds as if i'm kissing your arse here (i'm not) but i agree with everything that you wrote there.

    I honestly think that people who have heroin or other addictive drugs on them shouldn't be prosecuted, because that will only help their addiction in one way or another. They should be helped, not punished.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Anyway you look at it young people are going to try new drugs and binge on drink and drugs quite frequently, regardless of what the drug laws are.

    I agree with cannabis becoming legal after a while, then mdma...and the 2C family of drugs, i also think acid should be legal and given out to people who decide they want to take it.

    Who give society the right to ban drugs? plants were put here on earth...why are they banned? like cannabis for example, it's a herb, medical purposes..recretional use, why kick up such a fuss over it? just leave people be to have a smoke, why can't they just let people decide what they want to do...if a person wants to take drugs they shouldn't be prosecuted by the law for doing it..drugs should be sold in registrated outlets and people made aware of the dangers of which drug they want to buy and a record is kept of the amount of drugs bought each time.

    But there is the issue about heroin and cocaine...they would have to be watched very closely and their users...it's a tricky situation.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Certainly Shogun, it is a personal freedom issue, however the needs of the individual need to be balanced against the cost to society.

    One could argue for example that one persons use of crack is their choice. But there is, in a lot of cases quite a high cost to society around the user.

    I personally am not convinced by the argument, well its natural you cant ban it. Opium is natural, so is Ibogaine, Datura etc. there are many things that are natural that arent very nice.

    Every drug should be treated individualy on its merits and its down sides.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yea well alot of drugs may not be very nice, but they still are plants, alot of things are nice and are legal, alcohol and tobacco for example.

    I wonder what the country would be like if all drugs were legal..realistically...would you see more people going out taking drugs because they are legal...i don't think so, some might become more attracted to it and since it would be legal they could get easy access to it, like coke, that could be something..alot of people are out there who probably would love to try cocaine but can't get any because they don't know any dealers, if if became legal their problem would be over, just take a walk down the streeet, pop in the drug store and pick up a gram of coke, a 1/4 of pollem and some acid, never gonna happen though.
    Every drug should be treated individualy on its merits and its down sides

    Exactly.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I just think that even restricted availability of drugs like cocaine is just asking for trouble. The current users are almost bound to do more which is in turn going to lead to trouble.

    It would be fantastic to think that we could trust the public to only take drugs in moderation, that you could trust people not to abuse them and do damage to themselves and others. But we cant, so in formulating any policy you have to take into account the potencial problems as well as the personal freedom issue.

    I just see the argument based on it being natural as getting in the way of the science of the issue. Cannabis is relatively safe, to me it makes next to no difference that it is natural. I feel the same about GHB, which was all told almost totaly safe before it was banned. It however is not a natural substance in the form people take. It is naturally occuring in virtually all muscle fibres, but thats not quite the point.

    The addictive drugs need to be treated in a different way to those which only really pose a threat from the occational use. The 2-C series of drugs are a good example of this, they have a small slight addictive profile, but can be quite dangerous. So if the danger is managed through information there should be no reason why people cant use them.

    However if you made cocaine widely available, even if the number of users didnt go up, which it would, the users that are already there would have a much higher risk of developing a dangerous addiction.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    clap.gif

    Very impressive... Get yourself on the government budda! Thought it was a brilliant proposition..

    A agree with you SO strongly on the coke thing also, as im sure you can guess. If there ever came a day when cocaine was going to be freely available i would shoot the PM myself. The skills class is something that is attempted (partially) at some schools but it is terrible, it really has to be improved to the state that you mention. And it needs to be accurate and informative as apposed to 'dont have sex' 'dont do drugs'.. Im not saying they should tell you the good sides to drugs (which they did in my old school) but it has to appear at least two sided to the students in order for them to listen. Kids need more information before any drugs policies can work.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Cheers for the words of support, its a shame we dont get many 'ban all drugs' nuts in here really.

    Personally I am concerned that as with a lot of things the pendulum is going to swing the other way soon, like it did in the 70's USA.

    Enjoy the freedom we have with drugs today, it might not last. But then again, there are so many countries moving this way, maybe theres hope.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    DUTCH RULES

    ok they have had problems to, but since when did you hear about people not wanting to go to 'dam because it's full of druggies, but you do hear of people saying they don't want to go to London because of them.

    and all the Dutch people i have met (i'm not saying they are all great because there are psycos and weirdos everywhere), are sooo cool and on the ball, and maybe it's just the society over there, but i think that they have honestly got the right idea.

    this is one reason we left England because the whole society there is so negitive and the media there just LOVE to make it look like a bad place, so now the Americans, the French, the Japanese, no-one wants to go there, because of the gun crime, the drug problems, the transport problems, the crupt goverment, and DO YOU BLAME THEM??????


    Luby
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's a tricky situation- the trouble is not with cannabis and such like, the trouble comes with heroin and cocaine.

    These drugs are very dangerous and addictive, and cause serious damage very quickly into the addiction- cocaine rots the nostrils, heroin causes blood vessels to collapse. It isn't like alcohol or tobacco, which causes damage but only in small amounts over a very long period of time; cannabis does the same, and so should be in the same category.

    The liberty argument is a compelling one, but it misses one key point- the state is there to protect people, from themselves as much as anyone else. The state cannot allow people to do what they want to their bodies, no matter how dangerous, whilst being fully able to discharge its duties to protect its citizens. And, to be quite honest, it's a bit rich for drug users to be demanding legalisation and at the same time demanding drug rehab programmes- if drugs are such a matter of liberty, people should be left to deal with it themselves.

    The law is just about correct in this time- I would advocate rehabilitation of drug users, forced if necessary, rather than punishment, but for those who deal the drugs then I would advocate much stronger sentences. I suppose its the carrot and the stick- make it harder for people to get the drugs, but help them to get off them at the same time.

    No, I don't think drugs should be legalised, because of the public safety concerns. Comparing heroin and alcohol is a ridiculous position to base an entire argument on.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kermit
    heroin causes blood vessels to collapse.

    Only if used IV with bad technique/dirty gear.

    Heroin is much less physically harmful than alcohol. In fact its one of the least physically harming drugs there is.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kermit
    it's a bit rich for drug users to be demanding legalisation and at the same time demanding drug rehab programmes- if drugs are such a matter of liberty, people should be left to deal with it themselves.

    This is nonsense too. Drugs should be legal due to harm reduction reasons as well as civil liberties. By your argument, we should not give any help to people with alcohol, tobacco, gambling, eating problems etc.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by luby
    DUTCH RULES

    ok they have had problems to, but since when did you hear about people not wanting to go to 'dam because it's full of druggies, but you do hear of people saying they don't want to go to London because of them.

    and all the Dutch people i have met (i'm not saying they are all great because there are psycos and weirdos everywhere), are sooo cool and on the ball, and maybe it's just the society over there, but i think that they have honestly got the right idea.

    this is one reason we left England because the whole society there is so negitive and the media there just LOVE to make it look like a bad place, so now the Americans, the French, the Japanese, no-one wants to go there, because of the gun crime, the drug problems, the transport problems, the crupt goverment, and DO YOU BLAME THEM??????


    Luby

    Americans dont want to go to Engalnd because of gun crime..... :chin:

    also PLENTY of people say they dont want to go to Amsterdam because of the 'druggies' my parents for one, other members of my family, when i mentioned going to dam to my sociology class the vast majority said theyd never go there because of the druggies...

    And the Japanese have a love of England! Obviously not each individual Japanes person but on the whole they are very fond of Britain and Bristish things.
  • JadedJaded Posts: 2,682 Boards Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    Only if used IV with bad technique/dirty gear.

    Heroin is much less physically harmful than alcohol. In fact its one of the least physically harming drugs there is.

    That may be true for pure heroin Blagsta, but when have you ever heard of anyone getting hold of pure heroin?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :yes: :yes: and more :yes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by LadyJade
    That may be true for pure heroin Blagsta, but when have you ever heard of anyone getting hold of pure heroin?

    Some GP's can now prescribe pharm grade heroin.

    But the point is that if it was legally available to addicts, it wouldn' cause as many problems.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I know, the crime associated with addicts would decrease if heroin was made legal for them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    those people who said that about dam are wrong.

    it's soo clean, and when i went, all i saw was people smoking in coffee houses and a few people getting drunk (they were english)

    call me nieve but i think that dam is safer and cleaner in that way than most british cities.

    and trust me the americans not want to come to england because of gun crime, they think it's worse in england than in the US

    Luby
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You were obviously oblivious to the muggings (i have two friends who were mugged by dutch people, violent threats (my friend got involved in a fight with a local when he stepped in to come to a girls rescue) and i have heard plenty of stories about the unsafe streets at night (common in many cities and larger towns) in Amsterdam as well as the heavy drug addicts roaming the streets in the early hours of the morning. Amsterdam isnt especially special there are still the dangers you find in British towns and cities. If you ever read smokers guides to the Dam and so forth there are always safety warnings. Maybe you only saw the side the Dutch wanted you to see.

    I have friends who have gone to Amsterdam two times a year for 6 years, i was to go with 2 other girls, they told me not to be stupid. That it was unsafe for us as three teenage girls in Amsterdam

    And i doubt that about Americans, but then i have no evidence.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by luby
    those people who said that about dam are wrong.

    it's soo clean, and when i went, all i saw was people smoking in coffee houses and a few people getting drunk (they were english)

    call me nieve but i think that dam is safer and cleaner in that way than most british cities.

    and trust me the americans not want to come to england because of gun crime, they think it's worse in england than in the US

    Luby
    since the dutch relaxed the use of cannabis ...the use of class A' DRUGS HAS PLUMMETED WHERE THE UK'S HAS ROCKETED. oops caps.
    the average age of smack heads in the uk is getting younger becuase of our stringent drug laws. the average age of smack heads in the dam is around about 40 as young people there shun the stuff. lot to be learned from the dutch experience.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Maybe, i mean the Dutch certainly have had a big success with their policies, and the state of affairs over there is preferable to those over here. Same as with areas of Spain. It does seem that when people are allowed legally to do something they do it less or are more responsible. This applies to drug laws and sex laws.

    But Amsterdam still does have its grimey negative sides, just like a typical town its not all as safe and druggie free as Luby mentioned. The areas the tourists see are far different from the areas the locals see.

    Im sure somebody will know, what was it with certain political groups in Holland being unhappy with the cannabis laws? Wanting to retighten them? Theyve already closed numerous coffee shops, the Bulldog being one as it was very big in drug trafficking to the UK. Shipments were coming over to Kent the year before last.. The police were frantic. I remember that very well..
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Im also very sceptical of the argument that the reason there are so many younger hard drug users is because of the cannabis laws. That just seems rediculous to me. If cannabis was decriminalised or legalised then why does that have such a significant effect on the numbers and ages of hard drug users. Could somebody explain that to me because to me it sounds very far fetched. If cannabis was at the same level here as the Dam it wouldnt affect my or my friends use of class As one bit.

    It obviously happened in the Dam, but is the only reason for it being the relaxation of drug laws?

    If we tightened the drug laws over here, you get caught in posession of class A and banged up for 6 years instantly, do you not think its possible that would have an even better effect? Of instead if you got stuck in to a high security rehab for 3 years?

    Maybe the reason that hard drug users are older and fewer in the Dam is because of drug education? Im assuming that that may be a main reason. Education is crap here, so younger people are less informed, more impressionable and can get thir hands on crack and skag from the age of 11, when the first go to secondary school. Some even before. And, once they can get their hands on it the dont feel like they trust the teachers who warn them (if they warn them) they hear so many mixed messages they dont know whats true and so are more likely to take it. Becuse they simply dont believe or trust their elders when they warn them. Its very rare that parents talk to their child and teach their child all about drugs. About how to take care of yourself and others if theyre pilling, why people do drugs, what happens when they become addicted, what the law says etc.. I have a friend whos 12 year old son knows all of that, hes at a rough school knows more about drugs than me and hes never touched a spliff. Says he doesnt want to yet. He warns his friends about the pros and cons of drugs. Thats the way i think it should be.

    To me its not as simple as the laws on cannabis have been relaxed as an explanation. If the laws were the same over here i doubt very much that it would have the same impact, and bring us to the same level as Amsterdam. Every country and every peoples is different.

    Also, i think that its terrible to change a law because people arent listening to it. They have basically admitted on a number of occasions that theyre relaxing the laws on cannabis slightly because nobody listens to them and its costing them a fortune in court fees. That gives out a terrible impression.

    I think if anything tightening the laws on class A drugs would have more of an effect. We all know that you can go to prison for donkeys years if you are caught with coke. We also know that it rarely happens. My boyfriend was arrested for intent to supply large quantities of class A class B and class C. Which he was indeed going to do. What happened to him? nothing. Many friends have been caught with class A all thats happened is a feckin caution. The laws a joke.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Minxy; You are indeed right, most of the reason that the Dutch have such an aging heroin addict population is because of their education policy.

    They have tried very very hard to seperate hard and soft drugs and have made many more harm prevention measures than here.

    I dont think that tightening the law on Class A drugs would make a big impact on the harm done by drugs. You only have to look at the places with very tight laws to realise that it creates more violence and crime.

    The US for example has massive problems and in the main their drug laws are much tighter.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You are probably right and the US is an example im just putting forward a number of arguments or suggestions. Not saying that i agree with them all.

    I am in two minds over tightening laws.

    I do think thought that if people do know that they will go to prison it may have an impact. Only on some people mind you, and probably only with those who have not begun using drugs yet. For those who use already i doubt it will make the tinest difference to them

    Personally i dont think jail is the way to go at all. I dont believe that arresting somebody first time and locking them away is the way to go. But it is an option. I dont think that offenders should be put into prison until they have been put into a high security rehabilitation centre, with no early release etc, and im not talking about a 6month period.. Im thinking much longer than that. I think that, along with education it is probably the only good way to help people and class A addiction, and the effects it has on society. If they keep persisting, then jail may be the next step.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As a user, if i was told 'you will go to prison, no question if you are found with class A on you' it could go a number of ways. I think, i would reconsider my drug use. I would definately cut out coke from my life as i could live without it. I would cut out pills as i can live without them. And where speed is concerned (i use it at raves and i know i cannot last all nightat a rave without a boost) id probably jsut become more paranoid and sneeky. But it would definately have an effect. That is however, just me. Addicts would think fuck it, if youre an addict a law isnt going to make a difference. But new users and those with the power to say no may find it changes things for them.

    Maybe.

    Who knows? Theres so many possabilities. No person is the same. No drug is the same and no drug has the same effect on each person.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The problem with tightening the law is it will make really no big impact on the type of users who cause the big problems. Yes you might well deter quite a few MDMA users but is a crack addict going to change his/her mind? I think not.

    We have to try and seperate the softer from the harder drugs. At the moment I think the law is misguiding in its classifications. MDMA is not as dangerous as Heroin and cocaine is far more addictive than LSD. Yet the penalties for all are the same.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    Some GP's can now prescribe pharm grade heroin.

    But the point is that if it was legally available to addicts, it wouldn' cause as many problems.

    Isn't that a slight contradiction? Methadone is widely available too, for those who want to kick the habit.

    The law doesn't prevent addicts getting help as it is, it makes it illegal to supply the drug in the first place. There wouldn't be any problems if nobody could get hold of the stuff either, which is what the law intends to do even though it is ineffective.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Methadone isnt always a good alternative, in fact it is chemically different enough to make it possible to be addicted to both. In fact in chemical terms it is more addictive than diamorphine.

    Many users dont like it, and because of this dont use it, therefore they have nothing to help them.

    The law as it stands does prevent people from getting help because treatment is given first to those involved in the criminal justice system. Therefore it is better to comit a crime and get arrested if you want treatment, sound like good sense?

    Of course there wouldnt be any problems if no-one could get hold of it, but do you really see that happening?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kermit
    Isn't that a slight contradiction? Methadone is widely available too, for those who want to kick the habit.

    The law doesn't prevent addicts getting help as it is, it makes it illegal to supply the drug in the first place. There wouldn't be any problems if nobody could get hold of the stuff either, which is what the law intends to do even though it is ineffective.

    Yeah, but most people tend to use on top of methadone. Methadone has a long half life, doesn't really give a buzz and is harder to withdraw from. Which is why people use on top.

    Subutex is becoming a more available treatment, but its more expensive to prescribe.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kermit
    Isn't that a slight contradiction? Methadone is widely available too, for those who want to kick the habit.

    The law doesn't prevent addicts getting help as it is, it makes it illegal to supply the drug in the first place. There wouldn't be any problems if nobody could get hold of the stuff either, which is what the law intends to do even though it is ineffective.
    not everyone wants to kick the habit. a heroin habit does not prevent you having a job, being a parent, being creative.
    heroin addicts don't sit slumped in a heap in filth ...they have to be very active to find there hundreds of pounds a week!
    yes there would be no problems if there were no drugs ...thered be no wars if there were no weapons.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by morrocan roll
    not everyone wants to kick the habit. a heroin habit does not prevent you having a job, being a parent, being creative.
    heroin addicts don't sit slumped in a heap in filth ... yes obviously some do ...same as some drinkers and over eaters do...they have to be very active to find there hundreds of pounds a week!
    yes there would be no problems if there were no drugs ...thered be no wars if there were no weapons.
    i think the two main reasons fewer and fewer young people in holland are turning to heroin is becuase of education and because
    cannabis has been removed from the same supply as heroin.
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