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Tories in 'best shape for ten years'...

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3106372.stm

If this is the case then why aren't the Conservatives are strong opposition today?

Why aren't they further ahead of New Labour in the polls, taking into account Labour aren't universally popular?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Tories in 'best shape for ten years'...
    Originally posted by monocrat
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3106372.stm

    If this is the case then why aren't the Conservatives are strong opposition today?

    Why aren't they further ahead of New Labour in the polls, taking into account Labour aren't universally popular?
    the days of the tories i believe and hope are over ...if not forever at least for a very long time. they are history. 18yrs in power and our schools and hospitals and roads were fucking crumbling! they were exposed finaly for the greedy self seeking bastards they truly are. the selling off of MY ...train company and water works and gas and oil and electricity etc etc ...to themselves at seriously knocked down prices was theft and deception on a grand scale.
    as well as politicaly stupid.
    for all new labours faults at least we have money going back into public services ...at least we have a minmum wage, at least there is such a thing as society again.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    x
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    have just read that micky portillo reckons that IDS has totaly failed to get over to the people what modern conservatives policies are, after all these years but then goes on to offer nothing himself.
    so ...can anyone explain to me ...what do the tories actualy stand for ...now? do any of you know anything at all about their policies regarding taxation ...the welfare state ... the NHS ...public services in general ...the minmum wage ...the unions ... be carefull not to spout last years stuff because it seems to have changed this then ...in fact be wary of spouting last weeks!
    do any of you know?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Basically, the tories aims are to cut taxes by reducing waste. Leaner public services will be more effective and less costly.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    From the website:

    Conservative Principles
    The Conservative Party is a large and complex organisation, representing and involving people
    with a diverse range of backgrounds, interests and concerns. It is a broad church, which
    encourages open debate and accepts differences of opinion.
    What unites the Party are the core Conservative principles which are the foundation stones.
    These are:
    • Freedom
    Conservatives stand for less interference from the state - freedom for individuals, families,
    voluntary groups and businesses.
    • Enterprise
    Conservatives want to keep taxes low and set businesses free from red tape to help Britain
    compete in the global economy.
    • Responsibility
    Conservatives stand for the rule of the law and support for the family.We recognise our duty
    to protect the environment for future generations.
    • Nation
    Conservatives want to safeguard the Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, maintain
    strong defence and uphold our right to national self-government. We want to be in Europe
    but not run by Europe.
    These basic Conservative principles provide the basis for all policy.
    Conservative Insight

    www.tory.org
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by morrocan roll
    have just read that micky portillo reckons that IDS has totaly failed to get over to the people what modern conservatives policies are, after all these years but then goes on to offer nothing himself.
    so ...can anyone explain to me ...what do the tories actualy stand for ...now? do any of you know anything at all about their policies regarding taxation ...the welfare state ... the NHS ...public services in general ...the minmum wage ...the unions ... be carefull not to spout last years stuff because it seems to have changed this then ...in fact be wary of spouting last weeks!
    do any of you know?

    Jesus MR you do ask hard questions. I'm starting a Politics degree in a few weeks and I've just done a Politics A-Level(got a grade A) and I couldn't tell you what today's policies are!

    Okay last I heard....
    Tory Taxation...
    Would not dare propose to cut taxes because they'd be hit by Labour saying they're going to destroy the NHS. So they're in favour of cuts but instead are going on a "look how much money is wasted" kick and so are instead claiming about savings they can make from cutting bureaucracy and such like which they'll supposedly use to fund improvements to public services without increasing taxes.

    Compassionate Conservatism: the Tory Welfare State (or not)
    In favour of private pensions, would remove Labour's tax on pension funds. Wouldn't increase pensions or benefits for the elderly beyond inflation, seeing more 75p style increases. Want to get rid of the New Deal and things like LearnDirect and would probably move towards American style limits on how long you can claim benefits before you're cut off. Would encourage more charity involvement in looking after the poor a la George Bush. Would also cut benefits on easy scapegoats like single mums and asylum seekers.

    Living on a Waiting List; the Tory NHS strategy
    Latest I've heard is they plan to radically extend the role of the private sector and effectively privatise the NHS. Apparently they want to introduce state help to pay for people's private operations for up to 60% of the cost, they say a short term measure to remove the waiting lists but would probably be permanent and would still leave an old lady having a hip replacement with a £5,000 bill. Of course this money for private hospital subsidies would come from existing NHS budgets reducing the amount for NHS hospitals.

    Public Services: Safe in their Tory hands?
    On education - probably a commitment to a continuation of the A-Level and I think they want to abolish the AS exam. More respect for teachers (but no more pay!). Probably would abolish local authority control over schools having them run off a block grant from central government, essentially giving them financial independence. I've heard rumours of education vouchers but doubt that would come off in a first term.
    On the police - Little change from New Labour. Increased surveillance and security, probably will introduce ID cards if Blunkett doesn't, they've been talking about it since the mid-90s. May find increased funding from somewhere for the police or at least less cuts imposed here. Probably will push for stricter sentences and would keep cannabis illegal.
    On defence - Won't increase funding (the Tories actually slashed defence in the 90s with the "Peace dividend" despite their claimed patriotism), full commitment to nuclear defence, supports American missile shield. Will probably reduce British troops humanitarian roles so reducing strain on resources.
    On transport - Want to privatise London Underground but doubt that'll happen now it's in GLA hands. Want to privatise Network Rail but the uproar from that means it probably won't happen. More road building, anti-congestion charges. No government investment in public transport probably with talk that it's privatised so should "stand on it's own two feet".

    The Minimum Wage - a lot more minimum....
    They hate it but probably wouldn't get rid of it. Instead they'd make it less and less relevant by automatically linking it to inflation instead of having the Low Pay Commission decide hence it would rise but at a fraction of the rate of earnings and so would these workers would slip further and further behind and it becomes less and less relevant.

    The Unions
    Would probably repeal the small steps Blair has taken to increase union recognition in the workplace and would probably cut back maternity and paternity entitlements but would most probably remove the entitlement to paid leave rather than the leave itself so it's less noticeable. Would try and get out of the Social Chapter and would probably make the 48 hour working week restrictions an opt-in rather than opt-out as it is at present thus making it even more of an irrelevance.

    Yeah, think that's broadly the base of Tory policies at the moment - and they wonder why they're flatlining in the polls despite a huge government crisis.
    :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by kevlar85
    Living on a Waiting List; the Tory NHS strategy
    Latest I've heard is they plan to radically extend the role of the private sector and effectively privatise the NHS. Apparently they want to introduce state help to pay for people's private operations for up to 60% of the cost, they say a short term measure to remove the waiting lists but would probably be permanent and would still leave an old lady having a hip replacement with a £5,000 bill. Of course this money for private hospital subsidies would come from existing NHS budgets reducing the amount for NHS hospitals.

    Indeed.

    Basically this would mean that you could go to any private hospital and the NHS would contribute the standard amount for your operation. You would then have to kick in the remainder.

    I can only see one segment of the population benfitting from this, let's see if you can guess which...

    Also worth noting that this would mean that anyone who currently chooses to go private (because they can afford it) will be eligible for a subsidy. How many insurance companies will add arelebvant clause to thir policies do you think ?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's all over for Labour.

    The outcome of the Hutton Inquiry will show that the Labour government are outright liars. I confidently predict that more people will vote at the next election, simply to remove them from power.

    Gordon Brown is about to lose the middle classes by raising the stamp duty. He's throwing away Labour's chances with one simple Class War gesture. People forget that the middle classes put Labour into power in the first place. Now is certainly not the time to brandish the old Class War agenda.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by squat_tom

    The outcome of the Hutton Inquiry will show that the Labour government are outright liars.
    Did anyone need the Hutton Inquiry to see that? ;)

    I don't think Labour will be out as easily as you predict... Certainly a lot of people are not chuffed with them. But it is the traditional Labour votes that they should be most afraid of losing. Without their core support Labour could not win anything (just as without their core support the Conservative Party would have probably ceased to exist after the last 2 elections).

    But at the end of the day a lot of people who are not Tories will look at the Conservatives and say "fuck that for a laugh". So the result will be quite close either way.

    I reckon a lot of protest votes might go to the Lib Dems, and they might yet hold the key to power for either New Labour or the Tories.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by squat_tom
    It's all over for Labour.

    The outcome of the Hutton Inquiry will show that the Labour government are outright liars. I confidently predict that more people will vote at the next election, simply to remove them from power.

    Gordon Brown is about to lose the middle classes by raising the stamp duty. He's throwing away Labour's chances with one simple Class War gesture. People forget that the middle classes put Labour into power in the first place. Now is certainly not the time to brandish the old Class War agenda.

    Oh please. :rolleyes: It will probably (and hopefully) be over for Blair, good thing too IMHO. The lies are just in Number 10 Downing Street and Geoff Hoon's tenure at the MoD. I hope that we will have a new Prime Minister before the next election, a real Labour Prime Minister, probably Gordon Brown.

    After the record low of a 59% turnout last time it would be a disaster if the turnout went any lower so probably turn out will increase. Also most of the declining turnout was in safe Labour seats as Blair drove away our core voters, with Brown in charge they'll come back to put their crosses next to Labour.

    :lol: You did make me laugh with those comments on Labour's class war. But let's assume you were being serious for a second - very few people move house and so few people will be affected by stamp duty and those that are will have other factors to consider. Such as the fact that their house is worth a lot more than in 1997, that more money is being put into public services, we have the lowest unemployment, inflation and interest rates for decades. So yes, obviously you'll have them rioting in the streets of Bexleyheath over the increase in stamp duty, baying for the Chancellor's head on a platter. :rolleyes:

    No matter how bad things are for Labour at the moment things are infinitely worse for the Tories. They have a leader who is rarely recognised and when he is he's known as "that bald posh prick" or similar. They are still riven by infighting. They have no coherent policy platform and no vision. They have been flatlining in the polls for over a decade on their core vote. Also a significant number of Tory voters die every year as most of their vote is elderly and they are third in the under 35s preferences behind the Lib Dems. Their vote is literally dying away. The trouble with the Tories is that they did everything people wanted them to do during the Thatcher years (as well as a lot of things people didn't want them to do) and basically they've outlived their usefulness to the British people there are red lines the British people will not cross in terms of privatisation and we've reached that point, yet all they can do is propose more of the same which is electorally unappealing. Basically the Tories have no purpose in the 21st century and don't know how to define themselves and so stay in the 80s.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If you say so. Meanwhile, back in the Real World...

    The Middle Classes form the very strong, but very fickle, core of the voting public. The current Labour government came to power on the promise of New Labour. They had all the policy promises to soothe the social conscience, without all the nasty old left-wingers to make you feel bad about your affluence. Now the mask has slipped, and that same nasty, left-wing core is as strong as ever. Every conceivable Class Battle than can be fought, will be fought. Significant volumes of votes will be lost, and Labour ministers will find themselves with the same old 'Shadow' prefix to their titles.

    Plenty of people in the Middle Classes buy and sell a large volime of property ever year. This has greatly increased in the property boom of the last few years. A raise in the stamp duty is going to be a very unpopular move and will cost the Labour party it's place as leading party. Face it, your beloved Gordon Brown has blown it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by squat_tom
    If you say so. Meanwhile, back in the Real World...

    The Middle Classes form the very strong, but very fickle, core of the voting public. The current Labour government came to power on the promise of New Labour. They had all the policy promises to soothe the social conscience, without all the nasty old left-wingers to make you feel bad about your affluence. Now the mask has slipped, and that same nasty, left-wing core is as strong as ever. Every conceivable Class Battle than can be fought, will be fought. Significant volumes of votes will be lost, and Labour ministers will find themselves with the same old 'Shadow' prefix to their titles.

    Plenty of people in the Middle Classes buy and sell a large volime of property ever year. This has greatly increased in the property boom of the last few years. A raise in the stamp duty is going to be a very unpopular move and will cost the Labour party it's place as leading party. Face it, your beloved Gordon Brown has blown it.

    :lol: You do crack me up, you do. I live in a marginal constituency, I know a lot of people who could be described as floating voters. I do not know a single person who has even mentioned stamp duty as an issue. Health, yes. Education, yes. Policing, yes. Europe, to an extent. The only mention of tax is the National Insurance increase but it is broadly popular - as you may recall the budget which introduced it was one of the most popular budgets in history - damn Gordon sure did blow it there. :rolleyes:

    I suggest you read any Labour Party manifesto before 1997 if you want to see a real left-wing manifesto, might give you nightmares though - all that social equality and well funded public services. This government is not left-wing, it is centrist if not centre-right, especially on economic policy. Class war? What decade are you living in - it isn't the 80s anymore. People have moved beyond the myth that you can get good public services for nothing, they know you need higher taxes to pay for it and it benefits all of us, even you (Harley Street don't do ambulances). I would be willing to bet you easily that Labour will win the next election - you must live on another planet if you seriously believe the Tories will win the next election, even they don't believe that!

    :lol: Tell your property dealing friends that they'll have to live with higher stamp duty. The poor souls how hard life is for them. :rolleyes: Oh yes Gordon Brown has really blown it, not creating mass unemployment, not having interest rates of over 10%, halving the rate of inflation, not encouraging the two worst recessions this country has seen since the Depression, the first heightened by a government which saw mass unemployment as desirable and the second caused by a government which let rip an inflationary boom to win them an election. Oh for the competent economic management of the Tories. :lol: As I said before, you do make me laugh.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by kevlar85
    I'm starting a Politics degree in a few weeks and I've just done a Politics A-Level(got a grade A) and I couldn't tell you what today's policies are!

    :rolleyes:
    you made a seriously good effort mate!
    all the best in your studies.
    portillo is making some kind of a comeback i suspect ...i'll never forget him frog marching and ranting about those horrible europeans ...when he was still an mp ...i still find it amusing that he lost his seat to a spotty kid who was not expected to come any where near winning the seat. oh that glorious night when the tories died ...when labour swept them aside.

    O

    stamp duty ...i take it your family deal in property. how far down the social ladder will increased stamp duty bring you then? If you are typical of those clinging on to old tory values it gets ever clearer why your finished.
    new labour have many faults and have made mistakes like all parties do. at least they have vision, ideals, ideas, aims, hopes and dreams ...what were you saying modern tory policies were then ...oh you didn't did you. have you any idea what they are?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Seems like you were laughing a little too hard Kev, as you neglected to make any valid points.

    I'm not talking about a single constituency as the basis for my opinion. If I wanted to do that, I'd simply talk about somewhere such as Henley and be done with it.

    Labour manifestos don't scare me, they just disgust me because thez are full of such lies. Labour aren't capable of well-funded public services, just inefficiently funded ones. There's nothing quite like Labour to throw a huge amount of taxpayers' money at a minor problem. People know that good public services aren't cheap, but they do also know that they aren't nearly as expensive as Labour make them out to be.

    Do you read newspapers? I know that the Communist Manifesto must be a riveting read, but surely you must pick up a paper every now and then. Are you not aware of the boom in the property market? It's not just a select group of individuals, everybody wants to get a piece of the property market. Why do think that there are so many television shows and newspaper supplements on how to make money in property? Nobody is going to want to be charged more for the right to enter into property ownership. The public can see Labour for what it really is, a group of spiteful, jealous left-wingers who have let power go to their heads. They want to bring their Class War into the homes of the public, and the public is not at all happy about it.

    Labour has done nothing to provide a strong British economy. That has simply come as a consequence of a stong World economy.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As for amusing posts, your claim that the Class War is nonexistent makes me laugh. Heartily.

    Aren't you the same person who moans about 'inequality' and the "opression of the working classes"? :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by squat_tom
    Labour manifestos don't scare me, they just disgust me because thez are full of such lies.

    All manifestos are full of lies, you cannot just single out the Labour ones.

    In fact, why not look at Mrs Thatcher's first one. I think that there was a promise not to increase VAT. Of course, it was doubled soon after her election...
    Labour aren't capable of well-funded public services, just inefficiently funded ones. There's nothing quite like Labour to throw a huge amount of taxpayers' money at a minor problem.

    Whereas the Tories seem to think that cutting funding is the answer. Do you think it is just a co-incidence that many of our public services are worse now than in the 70s? Or do you think that 18 years of funding reductions wouldn't have affected this?
    People know that good public services aren't cheap, but they do also know that they aren't nearly as expensive as Labour make them out to be.

    The NHS certainly is, and if I used that as an example then I suspect that the other services are.
    Are you not aware of the boom in the property market? It's not just a select group of individuals, everybody wants to get a piece of the property market. Why do think that there are so many television shows and newspaper supplements on how to make money in property?

    How much of this is down to the greed culture sold to us by Thatcherism?
    The public can see Labour for what it really is, a group of spiteful, jealous left-wingers

    Are you serious? :lol:

    They are more middle class than anyone. I certainly don't think that the Cabinet (who actually make policy decisions) have much to be jealous of...
    Labour has done nothing to provide a strong British economy. That has simply come as a consequence of a stong World economy.

    How many countries are currently in recession? Apart from Germany and Italy that is. Oh and you can ignore France too if you wish - even though they are on the brink. Another quarter like the last and they will technically be in recession too.

    That's just our immediate neighbours.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by morrocan roll
    you made a seriously good effort mate!
    all the best in your studies.
    portillo is making some kind of a comeback i suspect ...i'll never forget him frog marching and ranting about those horrible europeans ...when he was still an mp ...i still find it amusing that he lost his seat to a spotty kid who was not expected to come any where near winning the seat. oh that glorious night when the tories died ...when labour swept them aside.


    O

    stamp duty ...i take it your family deal in property. how far down the social ladder will increased stamp duty bring you then? If you are typical of those clinging on to old tory values it gets ever clearer why your finished.
    new labour have many faults and have made mistakes like all parties do. at least they have vision, ideals, ideas, aims, hopes and dreams ...what were you saying modern tory policies were then ...oh you didn't did you. have you any idea what they are?

    Thanks MR. I don't think Portillo ever will make a comeback because of the voting system the Tories use now to select their leader. The old one where it was just the MPs voting was better than their current one which is insane to be blunt. First round you have the MPs vote for a few candidates (I forget the exact number) and the rest are eliminated - this means that each faction in the Tory Party has a figurehead to rally round and thus increases infighting and bitterness. These factional heads are then put to a vote by the Tory membership who will vote for the person who says what they want to hear which is usually the most right wing statements. This is why they will never vote Portillo as leader, the Tory membership will never forgive him for admitting he had a gay fling at uni because a significant amount of the Tory Party membership is, if not bigoted, then at least prejudiced.

    Trouble for the Tories is that they desperately need some sort of new policy platform, instead they're clinging to Thatcherism and the people of this country don't want it anymore. As I said before, they simply don't know how to react to the 21st century so they offer more solutions that are at least 20 years out of date.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by kevlar85
    Trouble for the Tories is that they desperately need some sort of new policy platform, instead they're clinging to Thatcherism and the people of this country don't want it anymore. As I said before, they simply don't know how to react to the 21st century so they offer more solutions that are at least 20 years out of date.

    Whilst Labour showed how in touch it is by entering into a war that most people did not want. :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by squat_tom
    Seems like you were laughing a little too hard Kev, as you neglected to make any valid points.
    Really? I suggest you re-read my text until the meaning clicks. You might just have managed it in time for the general election.

    I'm not talking about a single constituency as the basis for my opinion. If I wanted to do that, I'd simply talk about somewhere such as Henley and be done with it.
    Henley isn't a marginal seat. Hendon, my constituency, is the kind of seat the Tories need to win to have a hope in hell of forming another government. The Tories would win Henley even if their next manifesto included pledges to nuke all kittens and cook new born babies at gas mark 5.

    Labour manifestos don't scare me, they just disgust me because thez are full of such lies. Labour aren't capable of well-funded public services, just inefficiently funded ones. There's nothing quite like Labour to throw a huge amount of taxpayers' money at a minor problem. People know that good public services aren't cheap, but they do also know that they aren't nearly as expensive as Labour make them out to be.
    Really? I seem to recall an independent study at the time of the 2001 election saying that Labour had fulfilled 85% of their pledges with another 10% in the pipeline or nearly completed. Tory manifestos on the other hand... "the NHS is safe in our hands", "no new taxes", "we will remain in the ERM" etc need I go on? Yes, how dare Labour spend money on nurses, doctors, teachers, new books, new hospitals so inefficent! :rolleyes:

    Do you read newspapers? I know that the Communist Manifesto must be a riveting read, but surely you must pick up a paper every now and then. Are you not aware of the boom in the property market? It's not just a select group of individuals, everybody wants to get a piece of the property market. Why do think that there are so many television shows and newspaper supplements on how to make money in property? Nobody is going to want to be charged more for the right to enter into property ownership. The public can see Labour for what it really is, a group of spiteful, jealous left-wingers who have let power go to their heads. They want to bring their Class War into the homes of the public, and the public is not at all happy about it.
    Yes I do. Oooohh I'm so upset you called me a Communist, but then that's a typical response by people like you to all people who don't want poor people shot and want to live in a human, civilised society. Yes, I am aware of the boom in the property market thank you - however stamp duty only applies to those who move house which as I said is a relatively small amount of people who would also have other concerns to determine their voting habits. It might upset you and your wheeler-dealer friends but most ordinary people couldn't give a toss tbh. Most ordinary people can't afford their own house anyway so stamp duty is a good deterrent to the parasites who buy housing to let it out thus stopping these people owning their own homes - surely as a Thatcherite you'd agree that everyone has the right to own their own home? :lol: I love the way you deliver verdicts on the whole of the British people who, if they agreed with the nonsense you spout, would surely be giving the Tories a huge lead in the polls. Hmmm isn't happening is it? Guess there's more to life than stamp duty eh? :rolleyes:

    Labour has done nothing to provide a strong British economy. That has simply come as a consequence of a stong World economy.
    Oh yes, why don't we compare the state of Britain to our major competitors? Starting at the top - America, millions of jobs being lost and weak growth; Japan, been in a severe deflationary crisis since 1991; Germany, in recession with over 4 million unemployed; France, ditto - now let's look at Britain. Unemployment under a million and falling, the lowest interest rates and inflation for 50 years, comparatively strong growth and record investment in our public services. Look at the facts, under Labour the British economy is outperforming all our competitors, despite the global slowdown. Under the Tories Britain always fared worse in recessions than our competitors (early 80s and 90s recessions) yet under Labour it's doing better. :lol: Maybe you should check your facts before you post?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Which the Tories backed, surprise surprise!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Unemployment is only low because Blair is shuttling all school leavers straight to university. By the time they graduate, it'll be someone else's problem.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by squat_tom
    Whilst Labour showed how in touch it is by entering into a war that most people did not want. :rolleyes:

    :lol: Running out of arguments are we? I seem to recall the Tories supported it too. Also 1/3 of Labour backbenchers voted against it and most Labour Party members were opposed to it but then I wouldn't expect you to pick up subtle nuances like that.

    For all Labour's faults at least they didn't go to war expressly to win themselves a general election....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    Which the Tories backed, surprise surprise!

    And so did I, but that's neither here nor there.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by squat_tom
    Unemployment is only low because Blair is shuttling all school leavers straight to university. By the time they graduate, it'll be someone else's problem.

    In fact only 40% of school leavers go onto university. This figure does not include those 18 year old who left at 16 and are in the work place. Those who go to university are extending their skills and are gaining knowledge which will make Britain more competitive in skills and knowledge.

    Any more unsubstantiated BS?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by kevlar85
    :lol: Running out of arguments are we? I seem to recall the Tories supported it too. Also 1/3 of Labour backbenchers voted against it and most Labour Party members were opposed to it but then I wouldn't expect you to pick up subtle nuances like that.

    For all Labour's faults at least they didn't go to war expressly to win themselves a general election....

    The Tories aren't the controlling party at the moment.

    For a party that bills itself as the 'party for the common man', you'd think that they listen to what he has to say. But that's the arrogance of left-wingers for you.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its precisely here and there since you seem to think its some kind of argument against Labour. Your arguments, as kev has suggested, are indeed running thin on legitimacy. :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by kevlar85
    In fact only 40% of school leavers go onto university. This figure does not include those 18 year old who left at 16 and are in the work place. Those who go to university are extending their skills and are gaining knowledge which will make Britain more competitive in skills and knowledge.

    Any more unsubstantiated BS?

    More people are being encouraged to go to university, because Labour knows that there aren't nearly enough jobs. Why do you think that A-levels are getting easier, and uni entry requirements are being lowered?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by squat_tom
    The Tories aren't the controlling party at the moment.
    So that excuses them from backing the war? In fact the Tories helped the motion for war with Iraq to get passed with such a large majority. The Tories backed the war with Iraq you cannot deny that fact no matter how much you'd like to.

    For a party that bills itself as the 'party for the common man', you'd think that they listen to what he has to say. But that's the arrogance of left-wingers for you.
    This from the guy who says that the most pressing concern of the British people is the level of stamp duty. :lol:

    Listen to any conversation at a bus stop (those outdoor benches next to a long pole), supermarket or pub and people will be talking about the NHS, schools, transport and other public services and - what a coincidence - the Labour government is spending billions of pounds on improving these services. Yes because it's so out of touch with the common man that they can miraculously work out what they want - how do you suggest they did this amazing feat? Telepathy?

    If they were so out of touch with the common man surely they'd have collapsed in the opinion polls? But Labour still lead in the polls just as they have for pretty much a decade. So much for out of touch! :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by kevlar85
    So that excuses them from backing the war? In fact the Tories helped the motion for war with Iraq to get passed with such a large majority. The Tories backed the war with Iraq you cannot deny that fact no matter how much you'd like to.

    Your point being? They were truthful from the start as to their reasons for supporting the war.

    This from the guy who says that the most pressing concern of the British people is the level of stamp duty. :lol:

    Listen to any conversation at a bus stop (those outdoor benches next to a long pole), supermarket or pub and people will be talking about the NHS, schools, transport and other public services and - what a coincidence - the Labour government is spending billions of pounds on improving these services. Yes because it's so out of touch with the common man that they can miraculously work out what they want - how do you suggest they did this amazing feat? Telepathy?

    If they were so out of touch with the common man surely they'd have collapsed in the opinion polls? But Labour still lead in the polls just as they have for pretty much a decade. So much for out of touch! :rolleyes:

    No, they don't. Very few people actually care about politics. If they did, Labour wouldn't be in power.

    Most conversations at bus stops, supermarkets and pubs are about Heat magazine, Kylie's arse and Pop Idol. The majority of people are incredibly dense - another reason why Labour are in power.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by squat_tom
    More people are being encouraged to go to university, because Labour knows that there aren't nearly enough jobs. Why do you think that A-levels are getting easier, and uni entry requirements are being lowered?

    More people are being encouraged to go to university because it gives Britain a competitive advantage to have a large number of highly educated people in the workforce. Because as you correctly said, they aren't enough jobs in the less skilled fields as these are going abroad and as you correctly point out Labour recognises this.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you do the International Baccalaureate? If so then please enlighten me as to how you can value the nature of exams that you haven't sat? There have been a large number of new universities and further education colleges entering the educational establishment and these offer lower grades than traditional universities but I think you'll find that the qualifications needed for the top universities remain as rigorous as ever.
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