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Middle East shambles
BillieTheBot
Posts: 8,721 Bot
The Palestinian PM resigns
... while Israel continues its assassination policy
targets the co-founder of Hamas
and continues to blow up houses and leaving countless civilians homeless.
Well the Roadmap to Nowhere seems to be going well, isn't it?
... while Israel continues its assassination policy
targets the co-founder of Hamas
and continues to blow up houses and leaving countless civilians homeless.
Well the Roadmap to Nowhere seems to be going well, isn't it?
Beep boop. I'm a bot.
0
Comments
Can hardly call the Bush administration a credible and genuinely impartial broker in the process either. Certainly not when one examines the cozy relationship between the Sharon gov and Washington with several key US policy masters acting on behalf of both administrations.
It was always going to be nothing more than constant pressure and condemnation upon an already oppressed and beleagured people in favor of Sharon's expansionistic agenda. The only suprising thing is that the Palestinians bothered making any effort whatsoever.
In end, like every preceding attempt at a resolution to the conflict, they were bound to be backed into an untenable corner so Sharon and Bush could blame them for any breakdown.
This is what happens when supposed defenders of democracy start dictating who they will deal with and who they wont, regardless of the will of the Palestinian people.
Perhaps one of these days we'll get an admin which recognises the only way to establish peace is to start with the principle antagonists, the Israeli Government and IDF, and force them to adhere to the long ignored UN resolutions, withdrawl of ALL occupying forces and an end to the continued attacks on Palestinian civilian areas.
Yes, its going exactly where it was meant to. To making sod all difference.
Sorry, wrong again.
Yet a comment like this coming from Europeans is not that surprising given your history of anti-Semitism.
Why is it that when Hamas blows up busses, malls and pizza parlors targeting woman and children, you folks say nothing?
But if the IDF targets the Hamas leadership, and those who plan such attacks that is somehow morally corrupt. That is so hypocritical it is laughable.
Maybe you can explain how you can make peace with people that have sworn to your destruction. You know this to be true, Hamas does not recognize Israel’s right to exist, and are pledged to drive them in to the Mediterranean Sea.
What is typical here is a lot of complaining and finger pointing, but no offers of a solution. If peace is so easy to achieve what is your plan?
This is just another example of leftist spin. The region has been in turmoil for thousands of years and now it's all GW Bush's fault.
In my opinion peace can not be achieved without first achieving victory.
Actually no, quite right in fact.
First off im neither European nor anti-Semitic.
Secondly, you simply pander to the time worn and unsupportable BS that any criticism of the Israeli government is anti-Semitism. Well, news flash, such is as off base as saying that criticism of Bush and co is anti-American. Just another lame tactic by the authoritarian right to stifle all scrutiny of failed policies.
Amazing how those who scream such anti-this or anti-that werent so labelling themselves whilst they were attacking the Clinton administration for any and every contrivance they could come up with. Guess it's okay for the right to attack the left without so much as blinking an eye. Well the door swings both ways!
Actually with corporate media spin galvanised to highlight every single retaliatory attack made by the Palestinians as if it all occurs unprovoked and in a vacuum, average pundits need not say anything.
What is truly egregious is the relative silence of mainstream media on the near daily attacks, demolitions, infringements of human dignity, false arrests, and countless other crimes committed against the Palestinians by the IDF and its government taskmasters.
I suspect if your neighbourhood were occupied by trigger happy troops armed with all the best hardware Washington can supply, were essentially imprisoned nehind a concentration camp style wall and denied movement or work in a fashion all too reminiscient of some of the very acts perpetrated against the Jews themselves, and forced to watch family and friends killed for throwing rocks, you'd be the first on your block to retaliate in any fashion left to you (including strapping a bomb to yourself).
The hypocrisy is waging a war against the will of the international community on the basis of non-respected UN resolutions whilst pumping some $10m USD per day into Israel (at US tax payer expense) and that does not include military assistance, despite a refusal to comply with countless UN resolution over the past 30 years. There's the real rub which those with your position seek to ignore, evade with rubbish anti-Semitic claims or whitewash by pointing the finger constantly at the Palestinians.
Actually Arafat and the main militant groups have on several occasions announced readiness to eliminate that ideological position in fair negotiating exchange for the Israeli government's full adherence to its UN mandated end to occupation and removal of illegal settlements. The Israeli government has consistently found whatever means possible to evade such responsibility or has blatantly refused.
No Israeli government to date has come to the negotiating table intent on truly doing its part beyond mere lip service. The same cannot be said of the Palestinians who have time and again been ready to concede more and more to Israel only to find the Israeli government still not satisfied or willing to formalise the peace.
There is no new "plan" needed, what is needed is for the expansionistic zionist agenda to be quashed by Washington and the Israeli government forced to adhere to all UN resolutions pertaining to withdrawal of occupying troops, and end to demolition of residential areas, the rollback to pre-1968 borders and the formalising of a fully contiguous and viable Palestinian region allowing free movement and economic potential.
At present the process cannot even make legitimate headway for all the weedling demands and hinderances Sharon and co have placed on it.
The Left are not the one colluding with mainstream media to spin the news, that's the perview of the authoritarian right and its runaway government control over the flow of information. Try again!
As for thousands of years, perhaps the region has been in turmoil, however such a statement begs the actual roots of this particular conflict which dates back to 1948 and the creation of the secular state of Israel. God didnt reestablish israel, the Balfour Declaration did. Best you go brush up on the history of that.
And No, its not ALL Dubyah's fault, but the collapse of this round of the process on his watch and given the rhetoric he has selectively applied to condemn others in the region, it is indeed HIS and his administration's failure.
And what constitutes victory to your obviously right wing spin drenched mind? Annhilation of every last Palestinian?
That rather moots any concept of a legitimate and lasting peace and is precisely the mindset of those like Sharon and the Washington hawks that is systematically being shown to contribute to even greater violence and insecurity.
Guns and bombs only inspire greater hatred and backlash. The only route to peace is to put the guns, tanks and bombs away and comply with the obligations required of both sides in good faith.
Did you ever think that it had a chance of working? If so you are either incredibly naive or totally over optimistic.
Don't put all Europeans in this box. I for one am a strong supporter of Israel and feel that its is totally justified to hunt down the leaders of Hamas and Islamic Jihad and execute them.
I’m surprised that they have not finished Arafat of yet though.
Times are changing in Europe, we are becoming very anti Islamic. Just look at the views and comments posted on the BBC’s Islamaphobia thread, not the result that the Multicultural loving BBC would have hoped for I suggest.
Can you provide a link to that.
Never mind Arafat; the thing I wonder myself is why a war criminal wanted in several countries and responsable for the deaths of thousands of innocents has not "been finished" of yet.
So you think a few racist comments posted by trolls show this country's hatred of Islam? LOL.
Isn't more the case of how you would like it to be?
Due to a disagreement with Arafat and not Israel
So Israel actively targets terrorist leaders.
Your problem with that is...?
Indeed, as we have discussed before you are anti-zionist, not anti-semite.
A very thin line.
Your "terrorist" is another's "freedom fighter". A differentiation that has long served our self serving governments.
I truly wonder what your perceptions of Hamas would be if you were a Palestinian who had seen his home demolished, friends, children and other sundry relations killed or imprisioned by the IDF?
Expecially when Hamas has more than a militant aspect to its organisation, namely perhaps the most sweeping social support network for the Palestinians.
In such a case ive little doubt you consider Israeli actions tantamount to state terrorism as do an increasing number of people in the West.
Actually not a thin line at all, two considerably differing perspectives altogether.
Anti-zionist is tantamount to being anti-Tory or anti-Labour, whilst anti-Semite is an ignorant generalisation of an entire people based on their religion/ethnic or cultural origins.
One can respect Judaism without respecting a political movement that sprang up in within its ranks, many Jews themselves share that same criticism.
The problem is that we're trying to achieve peace here. Attempting to assassinate the spiritual leader of Hamas, a man who rightly or wrongly is liked and admired by tens of millions in Palestine and elsewhere, is guaranteed to provoke a backlash and retaliation of unprecedented proportions.
Let's not forget how many people could be called "terrorists". Starting with Arafat and of course Ariel Sharon who is responsible for the deaths of many thousands of innocents in 24 hours alone.
So should we wipe out ALL terrorists and war criminals before we get the two sides to negotiate a final peace? Or do we accept that many people on both sides now occupy positions of influence and we will have to let them stay?
May I suggest that this is as misguided a comment as saying there is a fine line between a German and a Nazi?
Yet you refer directly to things which you believe are Isreal's fault. Read what you posted again, and you'll see the insinuation in the whole post is that Israel is to blame for the entire shambles...
And yet you haven't posted a link about the recent suicide bombings, which also undermine what is happeneing. Nor a link to the two gruops who recently announced an end to their "ceasefire".
Actually that was a little ironic too, seeing as they had also claimed responsibility for two bombing carried out in the previous could of days. I don't think that their announcement was necessary, their actions had clearly shown that the ceasefire had ended...
Personally yes. But then I'm not the one being bombed. I'm not the ne having to sit opposite the man who ordered it.
And yes, that goes for both sides.
Not unless that German stated that he wanted all jews out of office...
The point I am making is that zionists are,, in the main jewish, and some people on these boards (for Clandestine isn't the only one) apparently believes that everything Israel does is a zionist plot to expand Israel.
That Israel is the only jewish state, that the vast majority of people who vote in Israel are jewish as is the Govt means that Jews vote for, and populate the Govt. A Govt which is viewed as zionist - ergo it doesn't take a major leap of faith for people to consider that Zionism and Judaism go hand in hand.
If they are one in the same (in the main) then it is possible that some people will claim to be anti-zionist in order to justify anti-semitic views.
Like I said, I'm not convinced that Clandestine is anti-semite and would still defend him (as I did there) but sometimes his comment sail close to the wind.
Unfortunately broken ceasefires and suicide bombings are not uncommon. Neither are the daily Israeli attacks by land and air, which I didn't post either. But the stories I posted were indeed uncommon, and of more seriousness than suicide bombings or 'ordinary' IDF attacks.
In an ideal world all who advocate violence would be removed from power and negotiations. Unfortunately that is not possible, and repulsed as we might be by certain individuals we have to assert the situation and reach compromises.
Certain individuals love to go on about eliminating "the terrorists" before any negotiation can take place, but unfortunately they seem all too keen to forget about the terrorists on the side they favour.
Zionism and Judaism shared some common goals, mainly the creation of a Jewish state. Judaism however does not have any God-given aspirations as per which land must be part of a Jewish state, and who does and does not have the right to live there.
I think Clan's usage of the term is prompted from the actions of the Israeli government. Actions that have little to do with the preservation of the Jewish state and much to do with the zionist ideal of an Arab-free Jewish state and the appropriation of the whole of Palestine.
Amongst those within the relative inner circle of my life, is a Palestinian refugee. He is about 40 years of age, and has lived the greater part of his life in the United States. Although he is constantly monitored by those within the ATF - and other alphabet groups - because of his business selling firearms and related supplies, he claims NOT to be in contact with Hamas... He DOES state, however, "We will fight them until they cease to be".
It does not require all that much to gain a relative perspective.
And this person is a practicing Christian, NOT a Muslim. What is missing is that no other nation in the region would grant the Palestinians citizenship...
Claim what you will, Aladdin... if it looks like a turd, and smells like a turd, it does not require a taste test to determine if it REALLY is a pile of shyte.
I've never pretended there aren't any Palestinians who hate the Jews and would like to drive all of them to the sea. Just like there are also Israeli Jews who would like to drive every Arab out of Israel. Do you fancy talking about these particular 'turds', or do you think they smell any better?
The fact remains that a majority of both peoples just wish to be left alone and to have their own statehoods, with no walls, settlements or ever-shrinking borders. If all the outstanding UN resolutions regarding the illegal settlements and the devolution of all stolen land were met, you would see how quickly all terrorist activity would end.
So, instead of criticing Jews directly (and thus being labelled anti-semite) some people will criticise Zionists. As you say many of the goals are the same... and so it's no wonder that some people will see citicism of Zionists and anti-semitic.
I think that your first point, covers the second.
Same applies to those Israelis who would see no Arabs on Israeli land...
Besides, which came first - the terrorism and violence or the resolutions?
Negative. I was putting forth a perspective, using a single MODERATE (who is not even a Muslim) as a reference point..
I was addressing whether you call yourself "anti-Zionist", or "anti-semitic"... the smell is exactly the same.
That is not the sentiment voiced to me, directly, one on one.
And that is not the response to the offers from Israel.
True, its a response to false offers and those offers made using core obligations as bargaining chips.
When the Israeli govt chooses to negotiate without their fingers crossed behind their back or apache rocket attacks scheduled during supposed "ceasfires", then perhaps the process will have a legitimate chance of progressing.
Certainly to a nose buried deep in Anne Coulter shite. We don't expect you to have the political sensibility to know the difference between a political ideology and a people.
:rolleyes:
You would think that after 60 years people would have stopped using the tired old argument that anyone who dared criticise in any possible way the Israeli government was a rabid anti-semite. But the "tradition" is very much alive, both amongst the zionist media and the IDF apologists who would not utter a single word of condemnation if Israeli soldiers were seen throwing Palestinian babies into deep fryers.
What offers would those be?
How unsurprising that another within your circle should be as irrationally militant and intractable as yourself!
Certainly not when it comes to the divide and conquer perspective you espouse. Such beastial instincts reside at the heart of all humanity.
Far easier to pull the trigger or launch the missiles than to have to employ reasoning in order to achieve compromise.
Not much of a true Christian it could be well argued if his business is supplying guns (not for duck hunting more than likely) and claiming to wish all Israelis dead.
Ahhh well then, you and your heroine Anne Coulter produce enough to keep you and your militant inner circle fed for years to come. You must truly enjoy the odour, bon appetit!
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