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An attempt to shut down Europe's largest arms fair

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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That is slightly bollox though, it doesnt matter who made those things, who bloody used them. It was the allied forces who caused those problems not Lockheed.

    Its busines, its not their place to make the rules, thats the governments fault.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by bongbudda
    That is slightly bollox though, it doesnt matter who made those things, who bloody used them. It was the allied forces who caused those problems not Lockheed.
    No I disagree if they are prepared to make depleted uranium shells which cause cancer long after conflicts have finished and landmines which kill and maim long after conflicts as well then they are obviously just as guilty as the governments that use such terrible weapons. Because there can be no excuse for producing such terrible weapons at all. You could argue that guns and tanks are sometimes neccessary for a country's defence for example, but never depleted uranium shells or landmines.
    http://www.dsei.org
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes moraly, but, its not really a busines job to be moralistic, its there to gain long term share holder value.

    Whether or not thats a good thing or not is really not the issue, its the system we have and if the other systems are anything to go by its the best there is.

    The business of business is business, the government should set down the rules and then they should follow them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by bongbudda
    Yes moraly, but, its not really a busines job to be moralistic, its there to gain long term share holder value.

    Whether or not thats a good thing or not is really not the issue, its the system we have and if the other systems are anything to go by its the best there is.

    The business of business is business, the government should set down the rules and then they should follow them.
    Bollocks! If bussinesses produce products such as land mines and depleted uranium shells then they are evil and should be smashed. Just like other evil businesses such as visisection laboritries which torture and kill animals for porfit!

    Either a business should abide by moral guidlines or it should be smashed. By your logic the companies which supplied poison gas to Nazi concentration camps were just doing business!:mad:
    http://www.dsei.org
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    When was steelgate let back in?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by bongbudda
    Arms and Arms training are preaty much the UK's biggest export, do you really think Blair is going to stop that, its business.

    Apparently the arms trade accounts for about 2% of the UK export market.

    The arms trade is heavily subsidised, and contributes to the worlds refugee problem, which is a very expensive business.

    I don't think there is a strong economic case for selling arms to tyrants.

    And if Blair aint going to do anything about the Arms Trade, isn't that where we the people come in?

    Is anyone really in favour of selling arms to countires like Israel, Syria and Turkey??

    If so, why??
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There is a good article in the Independant today about the forthcoming protests outside the arms fair. Read this. :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I was just saying that the moral argument is somewhat pointless, yes I'm sure your right about it being 'evil'. But us debating the finer points of morality wont change anything.

    My point is that unless you change the legal enviroment in which companies operate nothing will change. And that legal structure is set by the government.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by bongbudda
    My point is that unless you change the legal enviroment in which companies operate nothing will change. And that legal structure is set by the government.
    I see what you mean. But when the government wont act to put something right then the people should take action. This is supposed to be a democracy after all.
    http://www.dsei.org
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And in the type of democracy we have voting is the best option, do you really think the government will listen to a few people protesting with signs outside a hall?

    NO of course they wont, because they know that most of you will NOT vote, same as they knew that they could ignore the protest in Hyde Park because most of the people there wont vote.

    Its votes that keep them in power so if you dont vote it will be nigh on impossible to make ANY difference.

    If you dont like any of the candidates then vote for them all on the paper, its counted as a misvote.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Bongbudda

    Just remind me which party has an anti-arms trade policy and a realistic chance of winning.

    If I spoil my vote will that clinch it?

    Are you sure this issue can be changed by voting?

    :confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Heheheeeeee...this is a pretty funny thread~!:eek2:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well write to your MP about the issue then, campain that way.

    Marching around is going to make NO difference what so ever, and yes I do think this issue could be changed by voting IF the majority of people want it changed.

    The government couldnt give a flying fuck about people who dont vote, why should they?

    All you marching isnt going to change that, I'm sorry but I'm sure you think your making a difference but your not.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I disagree. Perhaps will not stop the fair outright, but it will draw far more attention than a few thousand people writing to their MPs.

    Anti-globalisation demos have drawn much more attention to inequalities between the G8 and the Third World than all the letters to MPs and newspapers in the world. They have not stopped globalisation- nothing will- but they have certainly put the G8 in the spot, so much so that G8 leaders have been forced to announce they were to give extra help to Third World countries at previous meetings. This extra aid would have not materialised without the massive demos and the headlines they grabbed.

    The anti-war demos might have not stopped the war itself- again, nothing would have short of wiping out the entire US and British cabinets- but they have started the biggest citizen revolt against a government campaign ever seen. The spirit of Feb.15- the biggest demo in the history of the United Kingdom- has much to do with it, and it is very likely that if there had been no protests we would have no questions asked today, no Hutton enquiry, and a government that would be telling everyone the war on Iraq went well and was the right thing to do with no-one daring to disagree.

    Tony Blair might yet fall because of this, and chances are that even if he limps through the next election he won't be Labour's candidate for PM. I am proud that I'm one of the millions who took to the streets and might have helped make this happen.

    So I say well done to those demonstrating against the arms fair. They DO make a difference, even if it is not visible straight away.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I just mean that standing about in isolation isnt going to help, if everyone at the Stop the War march had written to their MP I think we may well have had a much better chance of being successful.

    As for free trade aggreements, I really dont think any of the possible changes coming out of Cancun are because of protest, they are because of the cost of the subsidies.

    Farming is the key issue and the cost of farming to the EU is massive, overall costing tax payers something in the region of 300bn euros a year.

    Both Germany and Britian cant or dont want to pay this anymore and with the expansion of the EU eastwards the cost would go up even more. Thats why its changing.

    They are moving subsidies from Pillar I to Pillar II support, partly because of what they aggreed with the WTO a while ago but mainly because they cant afford not to in the longer term.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I heard a lady from Liberty on the Radio this morning saying that they were arresting demonstrators under the new terrorism laws


    :rolleyes:

    surely all people bringing those guns and things into London for the trade fair are a far more appropriate target for these laws
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If you look into the Stop and Search laws and the new terror act, I would say the police are within the law to do so. Whether thats a good thing or not is another matter.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Surely the police can only apply anti-terrorism laws when dealing with potential terrorists?

    Of course, the system is open to abuse with police officers claiming they believed terrorists might have been hiding amonst the crowds or something. :rolleyes:

    All in all, yet another little bite at freedom in the name of security and "the war on terror".
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Good. Call me a cynic but I can really see the hand of Tony Blair involved here, ordering the police to use whatever means necessary to ensure his best friends the arms dealers have a successful fair. :mad:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladin; Have you read the new terrorism law? Its not quite as broad as the Patriot Act but close, we're all potencial suspects now.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I haven't got all the details but read a summary or two in the papers. Like you said, a little too close to Dubya's Big Brother America for comfort. :rolleyes:
  • JadedJaded back for more Posts: 2,682
    Anyone got a link to the actual law? I'd be interested to have a read.....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by LadyJade
    Anyone got a link to the actual law? I'd be interested to have a read.....

    *salutes google*

    http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/terrorism/govprotect/legislation/index.html

    http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/20000011.htm

    http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2001/20010024.htm
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Good luck to anyone who is going to go through those

    this section (Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001) is possibly the one in question

    96 Power to stop and search in anticipation of violence

    In the Public Order (Northern Ireland) Order 1987 (S.I. 1987/463 (N.I. 7)), after Article 23A (which is inserted by section 95) insert-

    "23B Powers to stop and search in anticipation of violence

    (1) If a police officer of or above the rank of inspector reasonably believes-

    (a) that incidents involving serious violence may take place in any locality, and that it is expedient to give an authorisation under this Article to prevent or control their occurrence, or
    (b) that persons are carrying dangerous instruments or offensive weapons in any locality without good reason,
    he may give an authorisation that the powers conferred by this Article are to be exercisable at any place within that locality for a specified period not exceeding twenty-four hours.

    (2) This Article confers power on any constable in uniform-

    (a) to stop any pedestrian and search him or anything carried by him for offensive weapons or dangerous instruments;
    (b) to stop any vehicle and search the vehicle, its driver and any passenger for offensive weapons or dangerous instruments;
    and a constable may in the exercise of those powers stop any person or vehicle and make any search he thinks fit whether or not he has any grounds for suspecting that the person or vehicle is carrying weapons or dangerous instruments.

    (3) If it appears to an officer of or above the rank of superintendent that it is expedient to do so, having regard to offences which-

    (a) have been committed in connection with the activities in respect of which the authorisation was given, or
    (b) are reasonably suspected to have been so committed,
    he may direct that the authorisation shall continue in force for a further twenty-four hours.

    (4) If an officer below the rank of superintendent gives an authorisation under paragraph () he must, as soon as it is practicable to do so, cause an officer of or above that rank to be informed.

    (5) If in the course of a search under this Article a constable discovers a dangerous instrument or an article which he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be an offensive weapon, he may seize it.

    (6) This Article applies (with the necessary modifications) to ships, aircraft and hovercraft as it applies to vehicles.

    (7) A person who fails to stop or (as the case may be) fails to stop a vehicle when required to do so by a constable in the exercise of his powers under this Article shall be liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one month or to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or both.

    (8) Any authorisation under this Article-

    (a) shall be in writing and signed by the officer giving it; and
    (b) shall specify-
    (i) the grounds on which it is given;
    (ii) the locality in which the powers conferred by this Article are exercisable;
    (iii) the period during which those powers are exercisable;
    and a direction under paragraph () shall also be given in writing or, where that is not practicable, recorded in writing as soon as it is practicable to do so.
    (9) Where a vehicle is stopped by a constable under this Article the driver shall be entitled to obtain a written statement that the vehicle was stopped under the powers conferred by this Article if he applies for such a statement not later than the end of the period of 12 months from the day on which the vehicle was stopped.

    (10) A person who is searched by a constable under this Article shall be entitled to obtain a written statement that he was searched under the powers conferred by this Article if he applies for such a statement not later than the end of the period of 12 months from the day on which he was searched.

    (11) The powers conferred by this Article are in addition to, and not in derogation of, any power otherwise conferred.

    (12) For the purposes of this Article, a person carries a dangerous instrument or an offensive weapon if he has it in his possession.

    (13) In this Article-

    "caravan" has the meaning given by section 25(1) of the Caravans Act (Northern Ireland) 1963 (N.I. c. 17);
    "dangerous instrument" means an instrument which has a blade or is sharply pointed;
    "offensive weapon" has the meaning given by Article 22(1);
    "vehicle" includes a caravan."
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Exactly the old stop and search laws are REALLY broad anyway, although they were mainly designed for Northern Ireland.

    My local police chief sent me a copy of it at one point while I was hassling him about an illegal stop and search, it makes interesting if slightly scary reading.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Diesel
    Heheheeeeee...this is a pretty funny thread~!:eek2:

    Still messing around with these English BBs, I see. And still talking guns.
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