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You tend to forget that it all belonged to the Osmanns and later on Britain.
There has never been an independant Palestinian state.
Go on twist and distort the discussion by using incorrect terms. I know what your opinion is. Thing is, you don't have to make people who maybe haven't formed their opinion yet, get an insight to the dilemma with untrue facts.
Shall I find the Palestinian sources saying that the attack was planned in adavance? That Palestinian officials had said that the yearly and expected visit had been approved by their own security forces?
Or shall we forget that?
The visit was a premeditated and calculated provocation. I find it astonishing that a man that is prepared to put not only Palestinians' lives at risk but his own people's for political gain can deserve the respect of anybody- let alone be voted into office.
Let's forget about "incorrect terms" and stick to the facts then shall we?
"British control: Mandate Palestine
Palestine - comprising what are now Israel, the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Jordan - was among several former Ottoman Arab territories placed under the administration of Great Britain by the League of Nations. The mandate lasted from 1920 to 1948. In 1923 Britain granted limited autonomy to Transjordan, now known as Jordan."
Fact: Prior to 1948 the Palestinians had their own state; call it Palestine, British Mandate Palestine or Uranus if you will.
Fact: In 1948, and after events in WWII, the UN came and said: sorry mates, we're taking half your land and giving it away to others so they can move in their millions. Hope you don't mind.
The rest is history.
Edited to add: FAO mods- I hope the image is small enough and doesn't slow things down.
Doesn't really make sense if it was their own state.
This was a war started by 3 agressive Arab countries , lets just say that they got wasted.
Israel conquered this land from the Arab invaders , it has full right to occupy it.
The distance from the West bank to the Med sea is 9 miles , this makes the country exteremely vulnerable to attack and it is also where most of Israels Industry is located.
You cannot expect them to pack up and leave this area.
There might have been a security issue in the past- there isn't one now. Nobody with a grasp of reality and an unbiased mind would possibly suggest Israel is at risk of being attacked- let alone invaded- by an Arab nation today. Not when the Israeli military machine is stronger than all their neighbours put together, has a nuclear capability and it is fully backed by the American Empire.
And more importantly, not when the Arab nations came to accept many years ago that the state of Israel is here to stay.
There is no excuse whatsoever for keeping the stolen land. The only reason the land hasn’t been returned is the zionist agenda that infects much of the Israeli government and its politicians.
Look at Syrian support for Hamas and Hizbollah , they still provide abses and weapons and funding for terrorists.
You mean the self-protection agenda that all Jews in Israel feel , the reason Israel was established in the first place , to provide a safe haven for all Jews.
Nobody who looked at the facts impartially , and not with a ridiculously anti-Israel , left wing agenda could fail to notice that Israel is surrounded by enemies and hostile governments , and in order to defend itself must expand its borders into terrority which is rightfully its own.
Clue: the area currently known as Israel belong to the Jewish race and nobody else by divine decree, and all non-Jews must give up any claim to any amount of land (if they must be allowed to live there altogether).
Me anti-Israel? LOL. I'm not the one calling for the removal of the state of Israel, or calling all Israelis terrorists.
But then again, I dare to criticise the IDF for shooting dead unarmed children, so I must be a Jew-hater right?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
History has demonstrated the need to ensure Jewish security through a national homeland. Zionism recognizes that Jewishness is defined by shared origin, religion, culture and history.
The realization of the Zionist dream is exemplified by more than four million Jews, from more than 100 countries, including dark-skinned Jews from Ethiopia, Yemen and India, who are Israeli citizens. Approximately 1,000,000 Muslim and Christian Arabs, Druze, Baha'is, Circassians and other ethnic groups also are represented in Israel's population.
Many Christians have traditionally supported the goals and ideals of Zionism. Israel's open and democratic character and its scrupulous protection of the religious and political rights of Christians and Muslims rebut the charge of exclusivity.
The Arab states define citizenship strictly by native parentage. It is almost impossible to become a naturalized citizen in many Arab states, especially Algeria, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Several Arab nations have laws that facilitate the naturalization of foreign Arabs, with the specific exception of Palestinians. Jordan, on the other hand, instituted its own "law of return" in 1954, according citizenship to all former residents of Palestine, except for Jews.
To single out Jewish self-determination for condemnation is itself a form of racism. "A world that closed its doors to Jews who sought escape from Hitler's ovens lacks the moral standing to complain about Israel's giving preference to Jews," wrote noted civil rights lawyer Alan Dershowitz.
When approached by a student who attacked Zionism, Martin Luther King responded: "When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism."
You are the one sympathising with people no better than Hitler , who wish to see all the Jews in the Holy Land killed.
Can you please show me where it says so?
Seriously.
http://www.wrmea.com/html/focus.htm
A few extracts for your consideration:
It looks as if even Orthdox Jews are revolted by Zionism...
http://www.netureikartauk.org/crc.html
Just for the record: are you suggesting that all Palestinians are "no better than Hitler?" Or that I support suicide bombers?
I don’t care for the latter because it’s not true and anybody who posts here can tell that, but I would care if you were saying that the Palestinian people are Nazis or terrorists.
I'd suggest you think carefully before you make any wild accusations.
The only people who are no better than Hitler are Mr Ariel Sharon, his government and supporters. Concentration camps, ghettos, containment walls, Nazi anti-marriage laws, collective punishments, executions... the Furher himself would be proud.
Secondly, I like the way you don't have any problems dissing anyone with religious beliefs and thereafter using them to prove your own point. Make up your mind.
For your information those same religious people are the ones throwing stones on vehicles when driving on Saturdays within Jerusalem or Jewish districts elsewhere in the world. I am happy that you feel some sort of connection with them. Really am :rolleyes:
Thirdly, your Nazi comparing is disgusting. How you can tell that to a grandchild of Holocaust survivors who've had their lives ruined, who've affected their kids and grandchildren, and given them complications cause of it I do not know. But kudos to you, for being so damn tactful, wellspoken, and overwhelmingly foolish.
When did the first suicide bombing happen Jacq? I'm not saying about the intifada, I'm saying about the suicide bombings which were caused by Sharon's attitude to the Palestinians. The intifada is comparable to a declaration of war not the actual war itself.
The territories were there for the Palestinians they were all marked up as Palestine and Israel invaded and took that state away before it had time to build up its own army to defend said borders.
They fucking declined the divison made by the UN as they wanted all or nothing.
So that made it okay for Israel to invade and take all their land? Israel could have respected the 1948 borders and not invaded Palestine but defended Israel's 1948 borders and so upheld the 1948 UN agreement. But they didn't and invaded and took the land which was rightly the Palestinians under the 1948 agreement. The Palestinians turning the agreement down doesn't make it okay for Israel to invade and take the land.
And it was not taken by palestinians as such, but from Egypt, Syria and Jordan.
Egyptians didn't exactly donate the Sinai area to the Palestinians when they got that back.
On the other hand should Mubarak get the funding of 2 billion he around a year ago said he wouldn't mind starting a war with Israel on behalf of the Palestinians.
But yes, the state of Israel is of course only over-reacting and have nothing at all to fear.
No when the Israeli Army forced the Palestinians out of their homes into refugee camps in the neighbouring Arab countries you mention.
Egypt, Syria and Jordan were sticking up for a defenceless neighbour in a similar way that Britain and America stuck up for Kuwait in Gulf War One, only difference is the Arabs lost. The Sinai was always Egyptian it was never Palestinian so why should the Egyptians give up part of their nation when an occupying force occupies what is rightly Palestine. But of course certain Israeli supporters have always wanted to drive the Palestinians out of their homeland into neighbouring Arab nations.. Incidentally, the neighbouring Arab nations provide a lot of their own land for the Palestininans through refugee camps which were needed after the Israelis pushed the Palestinians out of their homes.
What you don't get Jacq is that if Israel came to a fair settlement with the Palestinians they wouldn't need to wage a war and neither people need feel threatened. As soon as Israel comes to a fair settlement with the Palestinians it would indeed have nothing to fear.
Israel is a bastion of democracy in the Middle East , and must be defended at all costs.
Would you care to back up that empty first statement with some examples?
Also, there's a difference between defence and aggression and Israel under the current government is the latter.
Well Jacqs but of course Zionists today are going to deny their ideology's founders' true feelings towards the Arabs... just as neo-Nazis will deny Hitler was a bad man or that the Holocaust took place. But the fact remains that Zionism remains a movement founded by extremists and followed by a most intolerant branch of Judaism, and based in intolerant, hateful principles. To wish for the right of a Jewish state to exist is not an exclusive principle of Zionism... despite what some would have us believe.
Which bring me to the next two points:
Re the Jewish Orthodox. I don't have any sympathy for them as I don't have any for other religious groups. But I included their views on Zionism to reinforce the argument that Zionists don't represent Israel or the Jewish race, and certainly don't make any positive contribution towards peace. Thankfully there is a very large part of the Jewish community that rejects Zionism and views it as the unacceptable bigoted movement it is.
Re the Nazi comparisons. This is an issue that it would be deliciously ironic if it wasn't so tragic. Instead of asking how dare I to be so insensitive to draw comparisons between the Israeli government and the Nazis Jacqs, you should be asking yourself and others why the government of a people who have suffered so much, who have been at the receiving end of so much hatred and evil, has embraced similar policies and has now become the monster it was fighting 60 years ago.
Because this is what it has come to Jacqs. There might not be a full scale Holocaust going on or gas chambers working full time, but there sure is every other Nazi trick in the book being put into practice. And as a matter of fact there are several Jewish Holocaust survivors’ organisations voicing these very concerns. And why wouldn't they be? They surely have not survived one of the greatest monsters in history and acquired freedom and statehood just to see their government engaging in similar practices.
Oh, the "vibrant democracy of Israel" we hear so often about. A place where journalists are harassed and banned a la Zimbabwe. Where flying a certain flag is illegal. Where foreigners are shot or run over by bulldozers "by accident" and no-one ever gets prosecuted. Where demonstrators get chucked in the back of a police van and beaten up on their way to prison. Where troops are given orders to shoot at ambulance crews. Where people are arrested without charge and thrown into a jail cell "for preventive measures". Etc etc ad infinitum. Vibrant democracy indeed.
Before someone says something about the police beatings, a half-Arab, half-Greek friend of mine was arrested last year in Israel when a crowd started flying the Palestinian flag, and he was sure slapped quite a few times in the police van until he showed his Greek passport. The beating stopped then, although he has now been banned from returning to Israel. Some could say that was probably an isolated case. I somehow fear it isn't.
Funny that the people I know involved in Zionist organisations, despise Sharon just as much as you seem to, and would not hesitate to vote left of the scale.
Your summary of Zionism, is pure crap, and you know it, cause otherwise you'd shown me a link which I was asking for.
I want to know how large a percentage of Jews reject Zionism? Extremes anti-religious and extremely religious people do, but the majority are in the inbetween. And there are many times more than the people you're refering to.
I can see how you're getting more and more excited every time the comparison between Nazis and the Israeli government is being made. Tactless and disgusting. The Israeli governemnt are no angels, but the way everything is brought to extremes by you and the oracle is seriously astonishing.
For now, I'll let you go on with whatever you have to say. Fact is I don't need the stress, caused by this discussion.
You know perfectly well that no Zionist website today is going to publicly say they want to treat all Arabs like slaves or drive them out of the promised land. They're not so stupid. Still (correct me if I'm wrong), I know of no public renouncement by today's Zionists of the ideology favoured by the father of Zionism, Theodor Herzl, regarding Arab "barbarism" for instance. Or Weizmann's plans to extend the Jewish community to the whole of Palestine. Perhaps you could show me a Zionist website that renounces to such ideology.
Today's mainstream far-right and fascist parties don't go about saying the Jews are an inferior race that should be exterminated. Does that make them any more acceptable?
I am sorry if the Nazi comparisons stress you. I don't mean to upset you or wind you up. But I will continue to compare Ariel Sharon and his government to the Nazis for as long as they behave like Nazis. A few days ago I posted a thread regarding a marriage law passed in Israel targeting Palestinians who marry Israelis. That law (and I'm not the only one who says it) is simply straight out of the Nazi rulebook. What are your thoughts on it?
Zionism arose out of the near extermination of an entire race by another.
Zionists look out for themselves , you may think this selfish , but
its a nasty middle east out there , you dont seem to be able to grasp this fact.
Everyone else in the Middle East would see Israel driven into the sea , Europe would probably not lift a finger to help.
It is also a secular movement so any present day claims that criticism of the beligerent zionistic agenda of expansionism is tantamount to anti-semitism is patently bogus.
This however might correct your misguided presumptions on the subject (though i wouldnt hold my breath on that score)...
http://www.mepc.org/public_asp/journal/9012_corrigan.asp