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Facial recognition cameras in London

AidanAidan Woo titles are back!A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away....Posts: 2,079 Boards Champion


So what do we think, a necessary hi-tech tool against modern criminals?- or a threat to civil liberties on the slippery slope to an authoritarian police state?

During the trials it's been a £90 fine for walking past these cameras if your face is covered.
"Do, or do not, there is no try" <(•.•)>              
Mike

Comments

  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,121 Skive's The Limit
    Aidan said:


    So what do we think, a necessary hi-tech tool against modern criminals?- or a threat to civil liberties on the slippery slope to an authoritarian police state?

    During the trials it's been a £90 fine for walking past these cameras if your face is covered.
    Whilst I’m generally opposed to this policy, it’s not strictly true that covering your face has resulted in a £90 fine.
    One man was fined £90 for breach of the peace when he became violent with police officers who had asked him to uncover his face.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
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    Aidan
  • AidanAidan Woo titles are back! A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away....Posts: 2,079 Boards Champion
    Ah true, I looked into it more and he was given a £90 public order fine because told the officers who took him to the side to ID him to 'piss off'.
    "Do, or do not, there is no try" <(•.•)>              
  • mags98mags98 Posts: 257 Moderator
    I don't really have a view on this mainly because I haven't really read into this. Besides the potential privacy issue, I think this might help the public feel like that the police are actively doing something to help with the current rise in crime 
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,121 Skive's The Limit
    The issues that I have with this:

    1) The technology isn't up to it and gives too many false poisitives
    2) I don't trust the police not to use this for other applications
    3) We are rapidly progressing down a route where you activities can be monitored everywhere, all the time. 
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
    AidanSalix_alba_2019ogfaith
  • AidanAidan Woo titles are back! A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away....Posts: 2,079 Boards Champion
    1) The technology isn't up to it and gives too many false positives

    This has proven true in the trials. If police have to spend their time pursuing false positives this technology is actually tying the police down instead of freeing up more of their time.

    2) I don't trust the police not to use this for other applications

    In my community at least there's not a lot of trust of the police full stop. You see the police on the streets and you remember Orgreave and Hillsborough and the grooming gang cover-ups. You don't see the police on the streets and you think the police are useless. There's just no positive sentiment for them here and I bet my community isn't the only one like that.

    3) We are rapidly progressing down a route where your activities can be monitored everywhere, all the time. 

    It's a slippery slope, and we're still slipping down it since we started round about the time the Terrorism Act came in.

    Catching people who've already committed a crime is one thing. To really reduce crime you have to stop people turning to it in the first place. And it has to be done in a way that's less susceptible to abuse and respects civil liberties. So even if it is flawless, which it isn't, it still isn't enough.
    "Do, or do not, there is no try" <(•.•)>              
  • ShaunieShaunie England 🏠Posts: 9,120 Supreme Poster
    GreenTea said:
    I cover my face when I'm cold.. because the cold effects my lungs so I have to keep the air warm when I breathe. Would that mean I'd get fined? For literally looking after my medical issue
    No. They didnt get fined for covering their face. Got fined for becoming violent


    i think its a good idea
    if you have the strength to sustain anorexia you have the strength to overcome it
  • AidanAidan Woo titles are back! A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away....Posts: 2,079 Boards Champion
    edited January 28
    In three years of trials, 8 people have been arrested. Two attempts to use these cameras in a shopping centre had a 100% failure rate. 93%-96% of all identifications overall have been incorrect.

    Not only is it a massive grey area in law and a concerning step towards authoritarianism, it doesn't work lol
    "Do, or do not, there is no try" <(•.•)>              
    GreenTea
  • MikeMike 🦄🎮🌏 LondonPosts: 2,497 Community Manager
    @Skive said:
    2) I don't trust the police not to use this for other applications
    3) We are rapidly progressing down a route where you activities can be monitored everywhere, all the time. 
    This really bugs me. I'm a bit of a paranoid person and unplug my webcam when I'm not using it, cover my phone cameras when I'm not using them, etc. I even toyed with the idea of getting a faraday pouch for my phone when I'm out and about and not using it.

    But it does just feel a bit fruitless in the world we're living in now; when there are a million other cameras on other phones around me and when things like this new initiative are happening. But then, there's another debate there about surveillance and security vs privacy.

    More importantly, though, it feels like another attempt to curb crime that just won't work. Personally I struggle to see anything but an investment in community and social services actually addressing the cause of things like increased knife crime and stuff (assuming that's why they're doing this).

    @Aidan said:
    In three years of trials, 8 people have been arrested. Two attempts to use these cameras in a shopping centre had a 100% failure rate. 93%-96% of all identifications overall have been incorrect.

    Not only is it a massive grey area in law and a concerning step towards authoritarianism, it doesn't work lol
    Also this is super interesting. I guess if it's just a trial, they're not expecting it to work properly, but that's a pretty low success rate even considering all that. Eeesh.

    @Shaunie said:
    i think its a good idea
    Why do you think it's a good idea Shaunie? Interested to hear your perspective. :)
    All behaviour is a need trying to be met.

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    Aidan
  • ShaunieShaunie England 🏠Posts: 9,120 Supreme Poster

    Mike said:
    Why do you think it's a good idea Shaunie? Interested to hear your perspective. :)
    Cause i saw it work on a TV programme i was watching lol


    if you have the strength to sustain anorexia you have the strength to overcome it
  • ShaunieShaunie England 🏠Posts: 9,120 Supreme Poster
    edited January 29
    Shaunie said:

    Mike said:
    Why do you think it's a good idea Shaunie? Interested to hear your perspective. :)
    Cause i saw it work on a TV programme i was watching lol



    It was actually an interesting program called "captured" mostly about public CCTV
    it is really good and in realistic but not realistic but could happen. If makes sense

    Spoiler of the program
    Its about the manipluation of CCTV
    Which i doubt can be possible but maybe in the future for them to catch people they know are at risk but cant just arrest them so manipluate the cctv to make it out that its them. Which while i watching was frustated at it because he was inocent of the crime then i realise he wasnt completly inocent. 
    I don’t think others agree on that to happen but i do but lots of negatives to it like the people involved in the fake crime may be affected and people hearing of the crime that never actually happened
    And if you wanted to watch that then ive just ruined it alll for you sorry

    sorry that is about something different but i think was interesting. 


    But yeah i dont know much about the facial regnotion just seen it on a programe and i care about my privacy but i care more about catching vuneable people or criminals but yeah its probably not that simple

    [edited by mod to fix spoiler]
    if you have the strength to sustain anorexia you have the strength to overcome it
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,121 Skive's The Limit
    Let's not forget that the police have used spy tactics on race equality campaigners, including the family of Stephen Lawrence, they've put climate activists from Extinction Rebeliion on an extremism watchlist; and they've used anti teror laws to spy on and convict peope of littering and failing to pick up their dogs shit.

    The police have a long history of missuse of power, and an equally long list of not being held to account.

    This facial recognition shit is just a one element of a large scale surveillance creep. Everybody should be worried about this.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
    GreenTeaAidanSalix_alba_2019
  • GreenTeaGreenTea ☕🌻☕ MidlandsPosts: 5,101 Part of The Furniture
    I think it's a bad idea because it's a system the police will end up abusing and the public will soon lose their trust. 

    Imagine being pulled over by police for something you didn't do, and taken to the ground and tasered.. and it turns out you are the wrong person. 
    It's.a horrible thought

    The scars you can't see are the hardest to heal.     

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    AidanSkive
  • AidanAidan Woo titles are back! A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away....Posts: 2,079 Boards Champion
    edited January 29
    GreenTea said:
    you get fined £90 for covering your face which Is why I made my point
    Sorry, that was a bit of accidental fake news on my part, the fine was for swearing and making threats at the police who took him aside for covering his face.

    Although it is a grey area in law, I suppose police could use their discretion and just slap public order offense fines on people for circumventing the cameras whether they're threatening or violent or not.
    "Do, or do not, there is no try" <(•.•)>              
  • ShaunieShaunie England 🏠Posts: 9,120 Supreme Poster
    lol you don't look stupid it is what it is. Any one can make same mistake


    i don't know much about it but imo it just sounds like it may help them and if the system gets it wrong they know if not them
    if you have the strength to sustain anorexia you have the strength to overcome it
  • AidanAidan Woo titles are back! A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away....Posts: 2,079 Boards Champion
    If the system gets it wrong, it's a waste of police time.

    With current accuracy figures the police have to pursue 19 incorrect IDs before 1 correct ID is made.

    Not to mention that there's the risk the 19 innocent people will be harmed by the police, as well as having their time wasted too.


    Hypothetically, if there's a case where this camera footage is used as evidence in court- will it be allowed if the system has identified a face in the video as that of the suspect, but a human reviewing the video can't positively identify that it's the suspect's face beyond reasonable doubt?
    "Do, or do not, there is no try" <(•.•)>              
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,121 Skive's The Limit
    Experience and history shows that the police do get it wrong, and when they do they are very rarely held to account for it.

    You shouldn't trust the police (or anybody come to that) with data they don't need to have. 
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
    Salix_alba_2019ClaraOswaldtkdog
  • ClaraOswaldClaraOswald TardisPosts: 144 Boards Initiate
    I feel like some religious groups cover their face anyway, so if you want to be private its your right x
    Also if you accidentally covered your facebyou wouldnt need the hastle of police coming round x
    My feelings are bigger on the inside. People get me wrong.
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  • tkdogtkdog Posts: 118 The Mix Convert
    I think it is creepy that they are using such methods. It seems like such an invasion of privacy a big cost to keep people safe.
    And what if you were wearing a mascot fancy dress costume, is that a fine? I think people should be allowed to cover their faces if they want to within reason. I mean what if u are muslim. 
  • Salix_alba_2019Salix_alba_2019 Posts: 577 Incredible Poster
    @Skive

    I can't belive it took me this long to see what the police are truely capable of. You were right
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