Home› Politics & Debate
If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Read the community guidelines before posting ✨

"positive" discrimination

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
On some company's application forms it says things like "we especially welcome applications from ethnic minorities/disabled people/women etc" why? :confused: why should they especially welcome applications from these groups?

and i know there are some companies (and certain american universities) who have policies of filling certain quotas with blacks or asians or women or whatever - at the expense of equally suitable (or sometimes better) white/male/fully abled applicants.

surely this is just as serious a case of discrimination as openly tuning away ethnic minorities?

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    yes it is technically,i always bring that up in debates,and i always get accused of racism but it is apparantly 'the lesser of 2 evils' and the only way to solve the problems

    well i think noone should be discriminated against but no one should be pushed to fill quotas

    well what do you think?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    well i was thinking, why couldn't these companies use some sort of anonymous application system (for the initial selection at least). i.e. when you fill in the application form you don't put in any personal details except, say, a contact address or phone number. that way, you'd be judged on your professional qualities alone and the company wouldn't be biased towards or against anything that wasn't relevant to the job.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: "positive" discrimination
    Originally posted by KoolCat
    surely this is just as serious a case of discrimination as openly tuning away ethnic minorities?

    Yep.

    To be honest I prefer overt racism to this hidden form. At least then you can see what you are fighting against.

    Positive discrimination is precisely that - discrimination.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    as i say "its positive to some, which makes it negative to others"

    and anyway noone likes token people in there to be P.C, not even minorities since anyone would like to know they got the job/uni place cause they are most suited to it, not because they are there to balance the numbers!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've been applying for jobs recently (first interview on Wednesday, yay) and I've noticed this on all the application forms - I've got one here:

    Applicants are requested to tick the relevant box to enable the Company to monitor its equal opportunity policy. Monitoring is recommended by the Codes of Practice for the elimination of racial discrimination and for the elimination of discrimination on the grounds of sex and marital status. This information is used for no other purpose and will be treated as confidential.

    And then theres a list of ethnic groups, tick boxes regarding primary caring etc.

    And another:

    It is Company policy to employ the best qualified personnel and provide equal opportunity for the advancement of employees invluding promotion and training and not to discriminate against any person because of race, colour, creed, national origin, sex or marital status.

    Evidently this isn't eliminating racial discrimination or discrimination on the grounds of sex and marital status at all - I don't know how it would work exactly, but surely if they have quotas to fill they would seperate the applications of ethnic minorities from others, and then pick a certain number of those for the shortlist to fill up the percentages. Meaning that a lesser qualified member of an ethnic minority could be shortlisted, while a better qualified white person might not, because the person from the ethnic minority is from an ethnic minority.

    I think a system like KoolCat suggested would work much more efficiantly to eliminate both negative and positive discrimination.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Positive discrimination is unjust.

    People should attain positions on merit, not for the simply fact that they are of a certain race, gender or sexual orientation.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by solo
    But what senior political figure worthy of respect would speak out against this? Politicians and race professionals rarely miss the opportunity to seize on the latest report of abstract institutional racism, or — quite rightly — on cases of genuine and shocking racism. Yet when blatant racism against white people rears its head, who is there to speak out and challenge the status quo?

    if i were a politician i wouldn't have any reservations about trying to rectify the situation.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm a sociologist yay! Anyway, yes, positive discrimination does go on and maybe the Uk is far too politically correct to boot (why do you think they banned blackboards?). But then maybe the companies/universities want to make postive role models for ethnic minorities.

    According to my studies (and this is statistically correct), afro carrabean and pakistani students tend to have a lower academic attainment that caucasion, indian and chinese. Now maybe this is to do with the cultural difference theory, in that people are brought up with different expectations from their parents and some cultures view academic achievment as different to others. Thus, say an afro carrabean with a diploma in politics who goes on to be the prime minister, is a very positive role model for youths of the same skin colour.

    But yeah, sometimes it goes too far.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i don't want to be misunderstood here. i'm not saying that we shouldn't give jobs to minority groups. but i think that every applicant should be considered in the same way.

    i think it would be interesting to conduct some anonymous interviews for certain jobs, just to see exactly who gets chosen for the jobs when the decision is based entirely on skills and experience.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Positive discrimination is a very imperfect system, and unjust to a degree. But it is there to correct another injustice. Whether that injustice is still happening today is another matter. But I think most would agree that in the past there was a prejudice, whether conscious or subconscious, towards minorities filling important positions within a company.

    In other words, if it wasn't for positive discrimination many positions today filled by blacks, Asians, and even white women would be filled by white middle aged Anglo Saxons. Why? Because if a black and a white candidate with the same qualifications and skills applied for the same position, in a disproportionably high number of cases the white candidate would be chosen. And that is the ugly truth, or at least it was 20 years ago.

    Have a look at an employment area where positive discrimination is little enforced or not applicable- say the City. How many black CEOs do you ever see?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    Positive discrimination is a very imperfect system, and unjust to a degree. But it is there to correct another injustice.

    I don't think anyone disputes the reason why it was put in place, but using an injustice to recitfy an injustice doesn't solve the problem. If anything it will exacerbate it, giving people a reason to hate...
    Have a look at an employment area where positive discrimination is little enforced or not applicable- say the City. How many black CEOs do you ever see?

    Or women, even.

    Perhaps we should also look at Parliament too!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent
    Perhaps we should also look at Parliament too!
    Good point.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ahem, *gets on soapbox* thriving, diverse communities benefit everyone. Strict quotas regarding how many of this or that ethnic group need to be hired or promoted are wrong and damaging. Not having affirmative action programs with some teeth in them and thinking that good people will just naturally hire and promote various ethnic groups is deluded. So what's the solution?

    Have affirmative action programs that take care of everybody. Since we all know talent and unique skills do not reside in one ethnic group (just forget how talented I am for a minute and go with me on this :D ), it's vital to society as a whole that people from all ethnic groups from all over the world feel that they will have the chance to pursue their dream in your country. That's why you need affirmative action programs. Anyone who feels he or she is hurt by one, needs to take a bigger picture of the world...step back and realize there is not one opportunity that will make or break you. And in fact, (prepare to hurl) if you are a good, person who is open to all ethnic groups, you may find that someone from a different religion, sexual orientation or ethnic group has been instrumental in helping you in your success. With liberty and justice for all. *falls off soapbox*

    Props to dad for his help on writing this. :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The heart of the problem is: can we trust employers to make a balanced and fair choice when choosing new employees?

    (I thought your dad didn't approve of you posting here pnj)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    He doesn't always approve of MY posts. :lol:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    LOL. I must say the disclaimer at the end of your last post was unnecessary pnj. It had your father's hand written all over it just by reason of the much higher calibre language and analysis of the issue.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I posted it cause I want you and others to see I'm not all bad...just scared of another 9/11. Plus I do believe that post. Although I'm still looking up some of the words used. :crazyeyes
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
    Anyone who feels he or she is hurt by one, needs to take a bigger picture of the world...

    So from a personal perspective they should be relieved that it isn't although they have felt discrimination, on this occasion this is actually A. Very. Good. Thing. ?

    Surely, from the perspective of someone who had been discriminated against this is anything but a good thing. It doesn't matter what form that discrimination takes.

    So affirmative action means that a generation of ethnic minorities have access to jobs which they were previously denied, great for society but I'm afraid that it won't pay the bills.

    I agree that the original system was unjust but to replace it with another unjust system is perpetuating the problem - basic discrimination.

    And no, I don't have a solution either.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    seriously i dont see why every single job/activity has to be equally representing society in terms of cultures etc because the fact is that different cultures have differences and have different preferences in life, most of my asian friends from india etc their families push them to be doctors/businessmen more than any other group generally,obviously this dont back me up but hopefully you can understand my point and not misread it
    (im white btw)
    apoligies for poor articulation *mildly autistic*
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You both need to look at the issue more broadly. For instance, I read that a very high percentage of software engineers are Indian. Now, society needs software engineers in order to grow. That growth helps everyone and creates jobs...but it's not going to happen in a society that doesn't ensure Indians know they have a fair chance to have a good job.

    That's just one example but it's true. Unless there's a quote as to the number of a certain ethnic group who must be hired, no one is cut out of a job category because of race, etc.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
    You both need to look at the issue more broadly. For instance, I read that a very high percentage of software engineers are Indian. Now, society needs software engineers in order to grow. That growth helps everyone and creates jobs...but it's not going to happen in a society that doesn't ensure Indians know they have a fair chance to have a good job.

    But this very example highlights that affirmative action isn't relevant - certainly not for that industry. Unless you are suggesting that the majority of software engineers also live in India.

    Sorry let me explain that better if I can - assuming that the software companies are in the US/UK then how can the majority of engineers be indian, unless racism isn't an issue in that industry. These employees were clearly appointed on merit, not because they filled a certain quota. Affirmative action hasn't helped these employyees get a job, education has.
Sign In or Register to comment.