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Roy Whiting et. al.
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Hi guys.
You've expressed valid views upon this emotive topic - I feel that any type of premeditated crime is a terrible thing.
However, I just wonder whether you feel that calling for the death penalty, imprisonment for 'life' and castration, is a representation of the cynicism that which we, as a society, view our social institutions and their ability to protect our interests?
I'd be interested in your views. <IMG alt="image" SRC="cool.gif" border="0">
You've expressed valid views upon this emotive topic - I feel that any type of premeditated crime is a terrible thing.
However, I just wonder whether you feel that calling for the death penalty, imprisonment for 'life' and castration, is a representation of the cynicism that which we, as a society, view our social institutions and their ability to protect our interests?
I'd be interested in your views. <IMG alt="image" SRC="cool.gif" border="0">
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Comments
I have very little faith in the UK legal system...Did you read in the papers this morning about the Judge who fell asleep during a rape trail? Isolated incident but it all contributes. If the courts did their job then Sarah Payne would be alive and Roy Whiting would be rotting in prison for the rest of his life.
It was unacceptable - he has neglected his responsibility to our society, the defendant and the victim of the rape.
Unfortunatley for both of the latter, they'll have to go through the trauma of a re-trial.
<IMG alt="image" SRC="frown.gif" border="0">
Not to say I agree about Sarah's Law...without meaning to sound horrible I really dont trust anything grieving parents and a Sunday tabloid have to say on the matter.
Can we make a distinction between learned Evil and people born Evil?
Whiting was a 2nd time offender, the mistake was made when he commited his first crime and was treated so softly by the justice system, yet it took that first time for us to recognise his 'badness'.
I would much rather we had shorter but tougher prison sentences. How do we expect people to stay out of trouble to avoid prison if prisoners are kept in ensuite rooms with satellite TV and all the mod-cons? I think prison should be a horrible place that no-one would ever want to go to. Short, sharp sentences for first-time offenders too. None of this namby-pamby probation or electronic tagging. Bread and water & hard labour. Bring back the work houses!
Well if they're doing such a naff job then why bother with them at all then! <IMG alt="image" SRC="mad.gif" border="0">
I think you'll find they actually do a surprising number of 'successful' jobs, but you've fallen into the media trap of seeing a few horror cases/trials and thought this must be the 'norm'.
Why is it that people are so damned quick to complain and whinge yet can never offer up suggestions on alternatives?! This case is a minority one, that is to say the legal system has it's failings but on the whole works.
Incidents that do slip through the net are often picked up by the media and contribute to scaremongering and moral panics amongst the population. I mean there's no news like bad news!
As a member of the afformention institutions (4 to 8 hours a week only tho) I take it as a great insult when all someone can do is condemn us, constructive criticism is welcome but come off down your high horse unless you can do it any better!
Further more do we know that Whiting is really guilty? I mean the forensic evidence(a hair) was only recently discovered on old evidence! Surely they should have seen it before <IMG alt="image" SRC="confused.gif" border="0"> <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
How accurate are these tests? I mean one test to see if you've handled explosives also comes up positive if you've been holding a plastic cup! Are we being baffled by science, ah well it's a scientific 'fact' it must be right!
Well i shall quit rambling on but bear in mind that before you condemn ad criticise, have you a better suggestion?
Oh and the Death penalty is a very bad idea, disagree entirely.
Prisons are breeding grounds for scum, they're not as easy to cope with as you make out. Ever been? For more minor sentences it's best not to put someone through the prison system at all. That way they don't learn any more bad habit's so to speak and they are not mixing with the 'wrong' kind of people. Prisons become/are a dumping ground. More thought needs to be placed on what should be done as well as punishment/rehab being more offender and not crime based.
I dont class the police as the legal system. They dont sort out prosecution, sentancing and early release of sexual offenders.
Oh please..
Besides, if he is innocent then thats just more proof of the failings of the institutions <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
You said 'institutions' earlier in reference to protecting/keeping the population safe. Well courts don't catch crooks or investigate offences <IMG alt="image" SRC="tongue.gif" border="0">
I agree, a further problem is how to treat them. If 'labelled' a crook and thrown deep into the justice system they find re-intergration into mainstream society difficult and so usually re-offend.
Edited, i know someone who has recently been fired because his employer found out about his previous offences, he's going back to dealing dope as he says it pays well there's little hassle and no fucker will employ him anyway!
[ 20-12-2001: Message edited by: Marmite ]
You can manipulate statistics in many otherways! but yes i see your point, also funding is mainly allocated for 'results' so in order to maintain higher levels of funds a police station/district must maintain a higher arrest and 'result' rate. Most serious crimes take alot of time and money so in order to bolster the figures lesser offences are hit hard as they are relatively easy to deal with.
I'm surprised no-one else has brought this up, but hey. If certain people "cannot have their behaviour and actions changed by therapy" what is the point in leaving them to rot? By assumption, no form of therapy (and, by implication, punishment) will turn these people into the kinds of people we want as citizens. Therefore, what is the point in expending N mega-millions keeping them locked away. Bullets are cheap. (And in China, I note, they bill the offender's family, too.)
I hope that was some kind of joke. I think we are a lot more civilised in most things than China. As I said earlier, prison sentences should be shorter and tougher. And by making the prisoner work, perhaps the system could pay for/subsidise itself.
And a lot of the others who have been saying we should look at the social aspects of criminlaity, I totally agree. I saw part of a programme tonight on policing in Bradford, and some of th attitudes shown there towards the police by the youngsters roaming the streets annoyed me. When I was younger I respected the police (I would have been terrified if I was stopped by copper). Attitudes seem to be shifting and the result is an increasing lack of respect for authority. That is where the sociology comes in.
BUT, that won't solve any of our problems in the short-term. We need to be tougher on our criminals and stop letting of those the police know to be guilty through technicalities in the legal system, or through over-zealous solicitors advising their clients not to talk to the police during an interview (e.g.). Why do we have a 'right' to silence? Who does it help? Just the guilty as far as I can see.
I live in Cardiff and although we do have some really 'Bad' areas they are not as bad as the ones featured on this programme. However, they are fast becoming like that because of the high unemployment, lack of work ethic, huge families who cannot afford to feed themselves, bored and under educated teenagers etc etc etc.
Society does have to do something but how do you turn around 20+ years of turning a blind eye to these problems. The kids born into these families are now becoming teenagers, starting families they can barely afford, commiting crime to pay for drugs and other entertainment they feel they are entitled to and all because they have never grown up having belief in work and paying your own way.
Perhaps some are growing up without morals (Who's morals!?) and that is why there is such an increase in sexual and violent crime in these areas.
These communities need self respect and self esteem and perhaps then they will have a bit of respect for others.
Which part?
And, no, I wasn't joking at any point.
Given (and you may dispute that we can ever be sufficiently certain about this) that someone cannot be reformed, what is the point in keeping that person alive? I submit that the only reason would be that execution costs more than lifetime internment.
Perhaps you took offence at my comment about Chinese practices. I only noted the Chinese practice - I did not advocate it. Incidentally, the bullet is also sent to the offender's family after use - I forgot to mention that.
But yeah, the attitude shown towards the police in this city, especially from the communities who expect the police to treat them with respect, is sickening. Respect has to be earned, in my opinion, how are the police meant to react when they get firebombed, and when every November 5th the police station has rockets fired at it.
But the feeling of disillusionment has to be lifted, and the cycle of crime has to be stopped. One way of doing this is to make crime not pay, eg, burglary, muggings, etc, but stop being so rough on 'petty' criminals. Noone wanta to see mothers in jail cos they didnt pay the TV licence, or a student in jail cos he smoked a spliff. But proper criminals, like muggers, etc, should get punihsed heavily.
Er....why not? Crime is crime.
If you can't do the time etc...
I'm not suggesting that we lock everyone up but lets take crime seriously and get some seriously tough punishments in. The liberal attitudes of the past few decades really haven't helped...