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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ultimately, what does one have a 'right' to do? Whatever one can get away with. So, for the moment, America has a 'right' to act as it does.

    Totally agree with you mate. We, as citizens, only have the rights that our government allow us to have and which will keep us pacified with regard to all the rights they dont allow us. Same applies to countries, America has the right to do whatever it wants up to the point when everyone else turns on them.

    I think the US will have to do an awful lot to reach that point and so they can do whatever the hell they like.
    Good? Bad? Im the guy with the gun

    Ash, AoD <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Wow I am still amazed by the ignorance of the Americans. Why do you think that September 11 has happened? Is it because you are sow innocent and loving people
    And all other people hate that your country is a democratic country. Or is it because that you keep denying other people’s rights and are helping their puppet governments to keep on the power. While the people are denied their freedom. While your military basses are almost all over the middle east and helping governments like Israel keep killing Palestinians witch for over 2000 years have lived in that country.
    Nobody tents to look at the reason.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Bogo,

    You do realise that the UK govt has been alongside the Americans in almost everything theyve done in the last 50 years. We help them prop up those puppet governments. There are British bases all over the world as well. The countries that host US bases are perfectly happy with the Americans when they need them to protect them against certain moustachioed dictators in the area.

    PS, theres never been a country called Palestine and the jews have been there for as long, if not longer than the arabs.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    <STRONG>Bogo,

    PS, theres never been a country called Palestine and the jews have been there for as long, if not longer than the arabs.</STRONG>

    Then how come that before 1949 the jews where only 1% of that country and the 99% wich we see today is jews who emmigrated from the rest of the world.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well it was a lot more than 1% but thats not my point. There were jews living there back then. The Jews have been in the area for a very long time. How many people do you need before you can claim to live somewhere?

    Only about 1-4% of the UK population is black, is this any less their land because there are so few of them?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by bogo24:
    <STRONG>Wow I am still amazed by the ignorance of the Americans. Why do you think that September 11 has happened? ...
    Nobody tents to look at the reason.</STRONG>

    refer to "Poverty of Dignity..." thread.

    NOT my words, but those of a member of the liberal Left.

    Perhaps you might step away from YOUR prejudices long enough to open YOUR eyes, and remedy YOUR ignorance... <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Okay,

    The experiences of Muslims in Europe is understandable, if you aren't accepted by the majority, of course you will go where you are accepted.

    How does this relate to what Muslims in the Middle East feel?

    Don't be so naive as to think that our policies in the Middle East didn't help this happen. Our support for Israel caused this. Our training of the mujhadin in Afghanistan during the 80's gave them the means.

    There is no good reason for our support of the Israeli government anymore. If war broke out in the Middle East we would be there in half a second to stop it, probably with the UN as well. Our support of Israel doesn't help any of our national interests, if anything it endangers our energy needs. The argument that we need a military presence in the area is laughable considering the massive bases in Turkey and the fact that if we needed to we could park 10 aircraft carrier groups offshore.

    Given the way that Arabs (not just Palestinian either, also Arab Israelis) are treated by the Israeli government, I can't blame them for fighting. They have every right to try to recover their land, and yes they have an equal claim to it, as good as the Israeli claim.

    I'm not saying that our suport of the mujhadin in Afghanistan was wrong, I think it was right, but we have to accept that there are consequences for our actions overseas. Everything has a cost.


    By the way, if we should help the Israeli government just because they are our "friends", why have they been caught spying on us?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Alex,
    Our support for Israel caused this.

    Sorry mate but thats just rubbish. Bin Laden, like all the other Arabs doesnt give a flying fuck about the Palestinians. Theres one reason he attacked the WTC and thats the presence of US troops in his homeland, Saudi Arabia. The Israel/Palestine thing is just a handy little tool he can use to try and make himself out to be the great freedom fighter. He only started mentioning the Palestinians a short while before the WTC attacks even though hes been at war with the US for over a decade.

    If youre willing to give up the Saudi oilfields then so be it. Move your soldiers out and the masses will rise, probably under a fanatic. Are you willing to give up all that lovely cheap oil?
    Our training of the mujhadin in Afghanistan during the 80's gave them the means.

    How? All they needed was 20 stanley knives and a couple of aeroplane tickets. Hardly takes a genius to tie up cabin crew. You didnt train the Mujahadeen to fly jets, or at least your government didnt.
    By the way, if we should help the Israeli government just because they are our "friends", why have they been caught spying on us?

    You spy on them. You spy on us. You spy on pretty much everyone. I dont think the US is in any position to complain about spies.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    <STRONG>Alex,



    You spy on them. You spy on us. You spy on pretty much everyone. I dont think the US is in any position to complain about spies.</STRONG>

    Everybody spies on everybody. Not an emotional issue, except to the naive. Fact of life. Does not mean that you befriend them, but you do the requisite duty without getting emotional... You try them, judge them, jail them or hang them, depending upon the particulars. No need to get emotional.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Exactly. Spying is nothing new and its nothing sinister. Everyone does it so to single the Israelis out is just silly.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    YOu're right, the reason bin-laden attacked the WTC is b/c of US troops in Saudi Arabia, but the reason that the Arab world is not rallying against him is b/c of the Israeli support. Most Muslims I've talked to say that the presence of US troops shouldn't really be nearly as big of an issue as the Israeli-palestinian issue. Bin-laden wouldn't have done this if he didn't expect Arabs to support him and join his org, and the reason that he has support is b/c of US support of Israel.
    How? All they needed was 20 stanley knives and a couple of aeroplane tickets. Hardly takes a genius to tie up cabin crew. You didnt train the Mujahadeen to fly jets, or at least your government didnt.

    We taught them how to organize small tribal resistance groups into cohesive networks working together against the Soviets. Kind of somewhat influenced bin-laden, don't you think?
    You spy on them. You spy on us. You spy on pretty much everyone. I dont think the US is in any position to complain about spies.

    Touche'
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I fully agree with Alex if it wasn’t for the Israel issue us will not have any prob.
    People aren't joining Osama for his believes but for fighting against us. All this hate
    Against Americans or should I say (American Government ) is because of the Israeli
    Issue. If us stopped it’s support to Israel and withdraw it’s troops. Then there weren’t be
    Any trouble any more
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    but the reason that the Arab world is not rallying against him is b/c of the Israeli support. Most Muslims I've talked to say that the presence of US troops shouldn't really be nearly as big of an issue as the Israeli-palestinian issue.

    Im sure theres something to that but its not the whole issue.
    You say youve spoken to muslims about this, I assume you mean Americans? Arabs living in the middle east are incredibly ignorant in general. Not because they are stupid but because they are told what to think by their dictators. Very few of them know the truth about anything, they just know what the state TV tells them. Most of the arabs in the middle east hate the US because they are told to. They dont know the issues, they are just told that the US is the great satan by their dictators and their religious leaders.

    America will be hated by the middle east regardless of your actions in Palestine. If you pulled out of Israel tommorrow and cut off all aid do you honestly think things would be all rosy and good? You call me naive?
    If us stopped it’s support to Israel and withdraw it’s troops. Then there weren’t be Any trouble any more

    I feel sorry for you if thats what you truly believe.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    America will be hated by the middle east regardless of your actions in Palestine. If you pulled out of Israel tommorrow and cut off all aid do you honestly think things would be all rosy and good? You call me naive?

    I never meant to suggest that withdrawing support would change the views of the Middle East overnight. Let's not try to oversimplify my argument. The only thing I said was that was the main reason for resentment.

    As for the Muslims I talked to: 1 was from the UAE, 1 was a Saudi, 2 were Yemeni and the rest were Americans.
    Arabs living in the middle east are incredibly ignorant in general. Not because they are stupid but because they are told what to think by their dictators. Very few of them know the truth about anything, they just know what the state TV tells them. Most of the arabs in the middle east hate the US because they are told to. They dont know the issues, they are just told that the US is the great satan by their dictators and their religious leaders.

    That is a huge oversimplification if I've ever seen one. There is a large and growing middle class in Gulf states. They go to university, watch satellite TV, and study abroad. Don't figure because most Afghans are illiterate the entire area is. These people make up the bureaucracy of the government and while admittedly these governments are autocratic, they do influence policy. The average income in many of these countries exceeds that of the US and UK and their educational background in many cases in quite comparable.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That is a huge oversimplification if I've ever seen one. There is a large and growing middle class in Gulf states. They go to university, watch satellite TV, and study abroad. Don't figure because most Afghans are illiterate the entire area is. These people make up the bureaucracy of the government and while admittedly these governments are autocratic, they do influence policy. The average income in many of these countries exceeds that of the US and UK and their educational background in many cases in quite comparable.

    That is a huge oversimplification if I've ever seen one. There is a large and growing middle class in Gulf states. They go to university, watch satellite TV, and study abroad. Don't figure because most Afghans are illiterate the entire area is. These people make up the bureaucracy of the government and while admittedly these governments are autocratic, they do influence policy. The average income in many of these countries exceeds that of the US and UK and their educational background in many cases in quite comparable.

    I disagree. Theres a large middle class in the middle east? What do you class as large? Id say 95% of every middle eastern country with the possible exception of Iran and the tiny gulf oil states, are dirt poor and educated to match. Kuwait, Yemen and Oman are tiny little places who are incredibly rich because of the oil involvment with the west.

    I know full well that there are very well educated and very clued up people out there but they are very much in the minority and they are all in the ruling classes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    <STRONG>

    I feel sorry for you if thats what you truly believe.</STRONG>

    Then what is your answer. Try for a moment to be in there shoes would you like to
    Have Muslims troops in your country do you like to see let’s say your people having
    Been shoot by Israeli troops everyday and if they stand up and fight again they are
    Terrorist. And you proclaim that the media in the Middle East is runned by the government .If it was runned by the government then there wouldn’t be anything
    About the west . You seem to forget that Palestinians are Arabs an the middle east are Arabs to. Ask any Arab and it doesn’t matter if he lives in the middle east or in uk or us
    He will tell you the same thing the main reason is Israel.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I disagree. Theres a large middle class in the middle east? What do you class as large? Id say 95% of every middle eastern country with the possible exception of Iran and the tiny gulf oil states, are dirt poor and educated to match. Kuwait, Yemen and Oman are tiny little places who are incredibly rich because of the oil involvment with the west.
    Saudi Arabia,Iran, Quatar, UAE, Kuwait all have per capita GDP's that South America, Africa, and much of Asia would love to have. What do I consider a large middle class? Anything over the world average. The GSP's for these countries range anywhere from 5000-15000 dollars, which considering the larger number of people per family as compared to the First World suggests that many people live confortably. So this suggests that on the average, there are more people in the middle class than in most of the world.
    I know full well that there are very well educated and very clued up people out there but they are very much in the minority and they are all in the ruling classes

    Which is where you have the most influence in autocratic governments, including over the common people. Without having been there, and with only the privleged few that come to the US to study to talk to, I've heard that its just like anywhere else in the world, ignorant people living in rural areas and cosmopolitan people living in the cities.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Bogo,
    Try for a moment to be in there shoes would you like to Have Muslims troops in your country

    Now im confused. Is it Israel you have a problem with or US troops in Saudi? I thought you were arguing against Israel as the prime cause.
    And you proclaim that the media in the Middle East is runned by the government .If it was runned by the government then there wouldn’t be anything
    About the west

    Why? They cant exactly deny that the west exists so the next best thing is to make the west out to be evil. Im afraid its fact. If you can find an independant TV show available to the masses in the arab middle east then ill give you a cookie.
    You seem to forget that Palestinians are Arabs an the middle east are Arabs to.

    Im white, Hitler was white..Whats your point? Are you saying that there cannot be different factions within a certain race? If the arab world was so concerned about the Palestinians then why have they done fuck all to help them over the years. Theyve even chucked the Pales out of arab countries. The Palestinians are the sick child of the arab world.

    The arab nations object to the very existance of Israel.....Israels treatment of the Pales is just a way of expressing that. The arab world wouldnt give a damn if Israel was oppressing arabs over in Argentina as originally planned. If Israel wasnt setup where it is then the Palestinians would be forgotten about by the arabs.

    Alex,
    The middle class of the UK is probably about 50-70% of the population. Is that the case throughout the middle east?

    If what you are saying is true then what the hell is the problem over there? Sounds like they are all living in the lap of luxury.
    Which is where you have the most influence in autocratic governments, including over the common people.

    Yes but its the common people who support Bin Laden. There wasnt a single nation that came out in official support of the WTC attacks. Its the common, uneducated, poor masses that support him.

    We seem to have got way OT here.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Alex,
    The middle class of the UK is probably about 50-70% of the population. Is that the case throughout the middle east?

    If what you are saying is true then what the hell is the problem over there? Sounds like they are all living in the lap of luxury.

    Come on. Where do we live? Arguably the two most affluent countries in the world. I'm talking about how they compare to the rest of the world, not to the top. Of course, they don't have half of the population in the middle class, just more than most places.

    You're right, we are nowhere near the original topic. We're probably pissing off the person who started this thread with our own little discussion.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Balddog

    There are three reasons in the middle east that are the reason of haterute against us.

    1. Palestinian issue

    2. American Troops almost near mecca
    ( Wich their religion states that no army of
    other belives should be near mecca.)

    3.The Puppet Government
    ( wich do not dare to move a finger because they now if they do not complay with us or rather say kiss ass they will be overthrown )


    What i am saying is that if the media is controlled by the government then the only thing they will hear is what us whant's them to hear.

    And Arabs not giving a damn. I strongly disagree with that. Give each Arab an AK 47 and tomorrow you will find them at Israeli border. Those 6 day war say anything.
    The only reason for the peace is that each country in the middle east has a puppet dictator ( excluding Iran. )
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There are quite a few countries in the middle east you know. Not all of them have US bases or influences.
    strongly disagree with that. Give each Arab an AK 47 and tomorrow you will find them at Israeli border.

    Youre right. But as I said, they wont be there for the Palestinians, they will be there because a Jewish state in the middle of the arab lands is very bad juju.

    The Palestinians have been fucked over by the arab nations around them for years.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    <STRONG>
    The Palestinians have been fucked over by the arab nations around them for years.</STRONG>

    You are right about that but let's remmeber who is in charge not the people but the goverment wich Israel is us allie and if say boo then the dictatores get frightning.
    But let's remmeber that palestnian are arabs and if you go back in time you woulden't find countrys in the middle east but tribes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Im not sure what your point is about Palestinians being arabs. I know they are. I also know that they are treated like shit by their arab brothers.

    Tribes? You sure about that? They had civilisation in the middle east long before we in the west came out of our mud huts.
    Couple of thousand years ago was a period of greatness for the middle eastern civilisations. There were lots of arabs but there were also lots of Jews.

    Both sides have an equal claim to the land.

    Can I ask you what you would think if the Israelis started deliberately targetting the families of the PLO leaders, the terrorist groups and the religious leaders of the Palestinians? I mean really targetting them, as in walking house to house gunning down women and children, rocketing the day care centres and childrens schools.
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