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Conscription ????

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    conscription won't occur so it's not really an issue

    they'd just keep sending in missiles and bombs until there's nothing left, footwars aren't very likely and really on the specially trained forces would be the ones engaging in such combat
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by byny:
    I have no cause I would die for.

    Unlike most of the people who've quoted that line of byny's, I'm not going to condemn it. Personally, I think that's a wonderfully frank admission free of the shackles of conventional morality and guilt over 'not doing one's duty.'

    In any case:

    It's easy to find somthing to die for. Do you have anything worth living for?
    - Lorien
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Me> Your rights? Your rights are precisely what the stronger people in your neighbourhood say they are.

    Balddog> Why I do believe you just made a great case for civilian gun ownership


    Bugger. <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif"&gt;

    Of course, one could remember that the great body of a nation is, almost by defintion, not the intellectual cream, and thus far more likely to abuse any powers given them.

    I believe I've said before that I wouldn't trust a jury composed of 12 random people from Hull or Coventry. The idea of the internet allowing 24hr democracy and citizen participation in trials quite frankly scares the shit out of me. A society in which the public could freely indulge their every whim with that backing of law (because the law would be their whim) would surely be the worst ever on the planet.

    I believe 'Publius' pointed this out in The Federalist: Earth's only democracies have been small, bloody, brutal, nasty and short-lived.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    "The movement of a couple of dozen suicide bombers into the states and their taking over of planes takes a lot less effort than actually organising an army and fighting."

    And creating the universe also requires more effort, but the fact still remains that it did require alot of effort (and time and money etc.) to coordinate and preform the attack. <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif"&gt;

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the fact still remains that it did require alot of effort (and time and money etc.) to coordinate and preform the attack.

    We shall have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe it took a relatively small amount of effort to carry out the WTC attack as opposed to launching military strikes against military targets.

    19 guys and a few hundred dollars achieved 7000 dead..Very high returns on little expenditure.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by MacKenZie:
    It's easy to find somthing to die for. Do you have anything worth living for?
    - Lorien


    I would think that it is more important for a soldier to have a cause he (or she) is willing to kill for than one to die for.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Which is why I'm not a soldier
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Then it is a good job that there are people around who are willing to kill or die for those freedoms you take for granted.

    You should be eternally grateful, and remember to thank them whenever you get the opportunity.

    I look forward to seeing you at the Cenotaph this year.

    "Perhaps my best years are gone, but I wouldn't want them back. Not with the fire in me now." - Samuel Beckett
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The best way to avoid conscription is to have the words "fuck the army" tattooed on the outside of your right little finger.
    Also make the beneficiary of your Army will some 3rd world revolutionary-bin Laden might do the trick!
    Always guarantees non call up.
    No way would i fight in this pile of shite
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by soapbarbpy:
    The best way to avoid conscription is to have the words "fuck the army" tattooed on the outside of your right little finger.

    >wrong

    Also make the beneficiary of your Army will some 3rd world revolutionary-bin Laden might do the trick!

    >Just gets you the sh*t jobs

    Always guarantees non call up.

    >wrong again

    No way would i fight in this pile of shite

    >No but you'd let someone else do it in your place. Makes you lower than a snakes belly in a wagon rut.

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whould you fight in a war you didnt believe in?
    As far as im aware this issue hasnt even been discussed in Parliament even though loads of people have great doubts about military intervention.


    [This message has been edited by soapbarbpy (edited 05-10-2001).]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by soapbarbpy:
    Whould you fight in a war you didnt believe in?
    As far as im aware this issue hasnt even been discussed in Parliament even though loads of people have great doubts about military intervention.


    [This message has been edited by soapbarbpy (edited 05-10-2001).]

    Believing in your country should be enough, if I was asked I would gladly do my duty. and I would also gladly hunt down deserters who shirk their national duty as well If i was told to. In case you didn't realise there is a difference in believing in a cause and patriotism. A patriot doesn't care what the cause is, but will fulfil his or her duty if so required.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    "Patriotism is the vertue of the vicious"
    - Oscar Wilde
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    People shouldn't blindly 'believe in their country'
    Surely this means that whatever war their 'Country' (or government) decided to fight, then they should all blindly follow?
    Noone would expect the Afghanistani people to blindly follow the Taleban, just because they are running their country!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If you won't fight for your/this country, piss of somewhere you would.

    Spineless gits, let someone else fight for your freedoms though.

    Have your high morals on the back of others who are fighting and dying for them.

    peace"I'm pissed of at wankers who shout and scream, but won't fight the battles"child.

    well I feel better now, so that's alright then.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In reality there are very few genuine pacifists in this world.Only Quakers some other religious groups and a few decent individuals who oppose all wars and wouldnt fight in any army.
    Most people would fight however when the chips were down eg WW2.Many left-wingers were amongst the first to sign up in 1939 and 1000s of British socialists and Trade Unionists had already fought against Facism in Spain a few years earlier.
    But this a completely different situation you can hardly compare the few 100 Al Quaida fighters to the several million strong well equipped Wermacht.
    In Afghanistan this military intervention looks like making things a hell of a lot worse-already 4 UN minesweepers have been killed in Kabul even though they had passed on the exact location of their compound to the US army.Arab nations are getting twitchy and the cult of bin Laden grows.
    I really believe every diplomatic channel has not yet been tried and Bush is rushing into this to sate supposed US public opinion "to see blood in the sand".
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    you can hardly compare the few 100 Al Quaida fighters to the several million strong well equipped Wermacht.

    I think weve gotten a little off topic here. Nobody asked whether we would be willing to enlist 'now' and go fight Bin Laden. The original question was whether we would enlist if it all went to shit and conscription was needed. If we get to the point of conscription then you can bet your arse we are in some serious wehrmacht style trouble.
    4 UN minesweepers have been killed in Kabul even though they had passed on the exact location of their compound to the US army

    They were security guards and the info hadnt got to the right people. You make it sound as though it was bombed intentionally.
    I really believe every diplomatic channel has not yet been tried

    Ok then suggest something that can be done. You rubbish the allied efforts but you never actually give us an alternative to consider. Come on, tell us what else we could possibly be doing.

    "Let's roll......" Todd Beamer, American Hero
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How about the US withdrawing all troops from the Middle East as a gesture of goodwill and then promising to stop assisting Israel in its expansionist quest.
    At the same time try all the peaceful options ,OBL to be tryed by an Islamic court in Afghanistan or extradited to Pakistan or another Islamic country prepared to hold and put him on trial.
    What about the UN?
    Milosevic is on trial in the Hague at the moment and his efforts in mass murder make OBL look like a boy scout.
    But as long as his trial is seen to be fair and just he wont be seen as a martyr in Serbia after his welcome death after a no doubt lengthy jail term.



    [This message has been edited by soapbarbpy (edited 11-10-2001).]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How about the US withdrawing all troops from the Middle East as a gesture of goodwill and then promising to stop assisting Israel in its expansionist quest.

    Ah I see.....You want the US to do EXACTLY what the terrorists dictate. You dont think that might be a slightly dangerous precedent to set? You are a truly sad man if you really believe that the US should do what the terrorists order. How long until they take a dislike to something else? If you let terrorists dictate policy just ONCE then they will never stop.
    OBL to be tryed by an Islamic court in Afghanistan or extradited to Pakistan or another Islamic country prepared to hold and put him on trial.

    ROFLMAO...Youve got to be joking. You think that his own people, the people who have turned him into a veritable hero, would give him a real trial?
    What about the UN?

    What about them? Surely if they thought they could do any better they would have offered to. They usually have no trouble letting people know they want to be involved.
    Milosevic is on trial in the Hague at the moment and as long as his trial is seen to be fair and just he wont be seen as a martyr in Serbia after his welcome death after a no doubt lengthy jail term.

    Erm, you might wanna take a look at Serbia today and see just how many hard line far right groups are popping up and protesting against Slobbos trial.

    So you think that instead of actually punishing the people who murdered 7000 people we should do exactly as they ask and maybe let them be tried by Bin Ladens father in law..What shockingly good ideas.

    "Let's roll......" Todd Beamer, American Hero
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So the question is - if the shit hit the fan and we were told by the government that we have to fight, Would I?

    No I wouldn't.

    I must be one of those genuine pacifists then!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    "If you won't fight for your/this country, piss of somewhere you would"

    No.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by byny:
    Would I?

    No I wouldn't.

    I must be one of those genuine pacifists then!

    But you would let someone else go in your place then? A member of your family perhaps?
    The whole idea of conscription is that you dont get the choice, if you dont go you get arrested for desertion and tried for treason. A crime that until recently got you death, but has been changed so the minimum sentence during a time of national emergency is life. Which would probably be served as a grunt in the war.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No no no no no
    You're not getting it at all
    I wouldn't want anyone to kill another person, or to fight on my behalf.

    I have a right to choose not to fight and I am not expecting anyone else to fight for me.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    PACIFISM Opposition to war, killing, and violence; support for peace {Lat. pax}. Pacifism may be defended deontologically as respect for the value of human life, on the consequentialist grounds that the consequences of violence are clearly harmful, or personally as a significant component of good character.

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    PACIFIST:

    Someone who enjoys the freedoms won by those willing to fight for them, using these hard won freedoms to criticise those very actions.

    "Perhaps my best years are gone, but I wouldn't want them back. Not with the fire in me now." - Samuel Beckett
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Baldog you totally miss the point that every terrorist always has a valid point its just their methods and ideology that are completely wrong.
    Israel is like a running sore in the Middle East and a lot of the Gulf oil Billionaires wouldnt last 2 minutes without US support.
    Unfortunately a lot of Arabic discontent gets channelled through Islamic parties because any other type of leftist opposition was destroyed long ago by the CIA.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What the freedom to bomb the 2nd poorest country on earth.
    A country thats in such a fucking mess because of previous US intervention.
    The CIA invited these characters (al qaida) to Peshawar in 1979 -watch Rambo 3 or read Jihad! by an ex SAS geezer for the background material here.
    They (Al Qaida) have been around for 20 odd years assisting various Saudi and Pakistani causes plus fighting in Chechnya Bosnia and Kashmir.
    The amazing thing is that Al Quaida fighters are definitely fighting in Kashmir NOW!
    But this is never mentioned but read the Kashmir Times for daily reports.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Baldog you totally miss the point that every terrorist always has a valid point its just their methods and ideology that are completely wrong.

    Everybodys cause is valid to that person..Hitler had valid grievances in his own mind. It doesnt matter what their point was, when they turn to terrorism then they invalidate anything they had to say in the first place...Now I agree that the US could have made some changes in their policy before the attacks but they cannot and MUST not change their policies as a direct result of the attacks.

    "Let's roll......" Todd Beamer, American Hero
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The loser is always wrong, if we win then forever after we will be right.
    The winner gets to make the rules.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    TOMMY

    I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
    The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
    The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
    I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
    O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
    But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
    The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
    O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

    I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
    They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
    They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
    But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
    But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
    The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
    O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

    Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
    Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
    An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
    Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
    Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
    But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
    The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
    O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

    We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
    But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
    An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
    Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
    While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
    But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
    There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
    O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

    You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
    We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
    Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
    The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
    But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
    An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
    An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

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