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Religious slaughtering

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
I just heard on the radio that a new investigation has (unsurprisingly) found that animals killed by Muslims and Jews (i.e. by a single cut to the throat so that the animals bleeds to death) causes considerable pain and suffering to the animals. Indeed, the investigators have concluded that stunning the animal by an electic shock or carbon dioxide before killing it (as done by Christians, for instance) causes much less pain and suffering, but this form of slaughter is against the Muslims and Jews.

Do you think that the Muslims and Jews should continue to kill the animals as they currently are because that is the proper way to do it based upon their religion, or change in order to recognise the pain and suffering to the animals?

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    its quite difficult because thats the way theyve lived for years, and to ask them to change it would be going against what they believe in...

    however, its is seen as cruel on the animals feelings point of view, but then you can look at it as it, the animal is going to die, so does it matter how?

    hmm...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I tend to agree, I am not a massive believer in protecting odd customs but it would seem hypocritical to ban it when we allow animals to be battery farmed and then we massacre them and chop them up anyway...........
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think the word "religion" answers that one for itself ...

    They aren't going to change age old methods / techniques just because a report says the animals are forced to subject a little bit more pain...
    its quite difficult because thats the way theyve lived for years, and to ask them to change it would be going against what they believe in...

    Quite, hence posing the question of religion vs pain and suffering.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    All slaughtering is cruel - my uni flatmate used to work in a slaughter house and tell us stories... but at the end of the day I like Hamburgers and other meat products like most people and try not to think what I'm eating is another creature - which is pretty easy with beef, diced lamb, etc but harder with small animals like chicken as you can plainly see it's used to be a bird (unless it's like a chicken burger or nugget or something like that).

    I some ways I think of you're going to kill something you should have the guts to do it yourself rather then make a machine to do it for you.... BUt then again it seem that the instant knock out is less cruel ... compare this to the way they kill people in the USA on death Row . why don't they knock them out with an instantl bolt of electricity like the cows? Instead they stick them on a chair and do it more slowly and can take several minutes to kill the person.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BritJames
    http://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.slaugh.html

    That link is very interesting - it would seem that the Muslim and Jewish ways of slaughtering were a major advancement in reducing suffering to the animal at the time (Hundreds if not thousands of years ago)

    But nowadays we have electricity to do the job even faster - So it this a case that religion did something good all those years ago for the animals but now techonology has superceded it and the religous ways are now out of date?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm not sure where I stand on this topic. I too like meat, but the thought of an animal suffering unnecessarily seems very unkind and unfair. The thought of them bleeding to death and slowly losing their ability to breathe and then slipping into unconsciousness and then dieing makes me feel sick. In fact, I think that the quickest and least painful method of killing them should be used. However, this obviously raises the question of such methods being against their religions. Accordingly, I guess the question is which is the greater evil: banning them, at least in countries where killing in this way is deemed to be cruel, or religion.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Mobily's Ghost
    I'm not sure where I stand on this topic. I too like meat, but the thought of an animal suffering unnecessarily seems very unkind and unfair. The thought of them bleeding to death and slowly losing their ability to breathe and then slipping into unconsciousness and then dieing makes me feel sick. In fact, I think that the quickest and least painful method of killing them should be used. However, this obviously raises the question of such methods being against their religions. Accordingly, I guess the question is which is the greater evil: banning them, at least in countries where killing in this way is deemed to be cruel, or religion.


    I think the problem is with the religion - there's a big book that tells you what to do and it was written a zillion years ago - now with jet planes, computers, internet, electricity, etc there are situtions that the Bible, Koran, Torah, etc don't cover.

    I think when you have a book of rules it's dangerous - because as the world develops you're still tied to old ways of thinking - look at the USA and it constitution - you have the right to own a gun - if they wrote the American Constitution today which sane person would include that in the mix?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My teacher was in one of the investigations.
    In Judaism the knife used has to be as sharoest can be. A single hair should be able to cut in two, just by touching the blade. If not, it is forbidden to use.
    She said that the electric shock, isn't as efficient as it is made out to be. Several times, they shot in the injection wrong, which made the animal suffer, and even after then it took several seconds before it died.

    In Judaism, you are supposed to cut in a special place, where the pain shouldn't be noticed, and where it'll be over with ASAP with that sharp knife. What looks as pain, are the nerves who haven't settled as they haven't "recieved the message" of being dead yet, even after the head is cut off.

    As far as I know muslims use the same methods. And the method is concidered so it can be done in the most humane and most unsuffering way to the animal.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    DiamondGeezer, teh Torah and Bible are the same thing. just liek Allah and God are. It's just another name, from another language.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Tis certainly interesting.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It is very hard to change a tradition even though people maybe aware of the suffering the animal goes through.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
    My teacher was in one of the investigations.
    In Judaism the knife used has to be as sharoest can be. A single hair should be able to cut in two, just by touching the blade. If not, it is forbidden to use.
    She said that the electric shock, isn't as efficient as it is made out to be. Several times, they shot in the injection wrong, which made the animal suffer, and even after then it took several seconds before it died.

    In Judaism, you are supposed to cut in a special place, where the pain shouldn't be noticed, and where it'll be over with ASAP with that sharp knife. What looks as pain, are the nerves who haven't settled as they haven't "recieved the message" of being dead yet, even after the head is cut off.

    As far as I know muslims use the same methods. And the method is concidered so it can be done in the most humane and most unsuffering way to the animal.

    In addition to this the animal must be healthy and without tissue damage.

    The electric shock, and other forms of stunning the animal, all result in tissue damage and consequently the animal is no longer considered fit for consumption.

    At least that was the discussion on Radio 4 this morning...

    Personally I have no problem with this method of killing animals. At the end of the day they will still be just as dead...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
    DiamondGeezer, teh Torah and Bible are the same thing. just liek Allah and God are. It's just another name, from another language.

    Are you saying they are the same book? - Same writings, same stories, etc?

    I thought the Torah was the Jewish Holy Book? Just as the Bible is the Christian one?

    I assume the Jewish Book and Christian one are very similar but also different?

    .. I'm eating a bowl of Heinz chicken soup and all this talk of slaugther is well putting me off it now!! Plus the meat in it looks well dark - I thought chicken was white meat??
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by DiamondGeezer
    I'm eating a bowl of Heinz chicken soup and all this talk of slaugther is well putting me off it now!!

    :p

    Seriously, though, I actually anticipated more people to be against this form of slaughter. Perhaps the veggies haven't signed on yet.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    DiamondGeezer, Christianity and Islam derived from Judaism.
    The difference in Christianity and Judaism starts where Christians decide to follow Jesus and the new testament as well as the old testament (the bible/torah).
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Mobily's Ghost
    :p

    Seriously, though, I actually anticipated more people to be against this form of slaughter. Perhaps the veggies haven't signed on yet.

    Depends on the way you present it. With both methods people are saying that it's less harsh on the animal.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The way I have seen it put is that the Jewish/Muslim method is normally more painful but that the method of stunning is often ineffectiv i'e doesn't fully stun the creature so that they suffer more pain than would have been the other method, its a contingent case..........
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    When the method was thought up, the alternatives were limited and the method of cutting the throat was probably the least painful way of doing it.

    The Jews at Masada killed themselves in this way to avoid being captured by the Romans. They used this method as it was thought to be the least painful way of doing it at the time.

    If the reason for using the cut-throat method is because it causes least pain, then I think some Jews or Muslims would be open to other, more modern methods, which would be even less painful. However, if, as Girl with Sharp Teeth said, it's for another reason, then they will carry on using the traditional method.

    Also, the more orthodox Jews try to follow the book to the letter, so I would guess that they wouldn't be open to this sort of change.

    Not meaning to offend anyone here - just guessing! I don't know a lot about this, though.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    LSS, how do you know about the suicides in Massada? :)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    some basics
    I am a veggi
    For a long time I worked for a huge meat processing factory and slaughter house - so if its stories you want ...

    I think that both ways of slaughtering animals are flawed, but that the jewish/muslim way is more humane.

    in my experience "normal" slaughter techniques don't always go right...










    ps the Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
    LSS, how do you know about the suicides in Massada? :)

    I'm a Latin and Greek A level Student. We watched a film about it once. Had the whole class in tears. Makes me shudder just thinking about it.
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