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When will our governments learn.

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
The terrorist attacks against America comprise a horrible tragedy. But they shouldn't have come as a surprise.

The foreign policy of NATO countries has been insane for decades. It was only a matter of time until America or another NATO country would have to suffer personally for it. It is a terrible tragedy of life that the innocent so often have to suffer for the sins of the guilty.

When will our governments learn that they can't bully the world without someone bullying back eventually?

President Bush has authorized continued bombing of innocent people in Iraq. President Clinton bombed innocent people in the Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Serbia. President Bush Senior invaded Iraq and Panama. President Reagan bombed innocent people in Libya and invaded Grenada. And on and on it goes.

Did they ever think the people who lost their families and friends and property in all that destruction would love America for what happened?

When will our governments learn that violence always begets violence?

In the 1980s for example Reagan bombed Libya to teach Muammar al-Qaddafi a lesson about terrorism. But shortly thereafter a PanAm plane was destroyed over Scotland, and the US government tried to convince the world it was Libyans who did it.

When will they learn that "teaching someone a lesson" never teaches anything but resentment – that it only inspires the recipient to greater acts of defiance.

How many times on Tuesday did we hear politicians condemn these terrorist attacks.
But what about the Bombings carried out by NATO against Iraq and Serbia in recent years

So first of all, stop the hysteria. Stand back and ask how this could have happened. Ask how a prosperous country isolated by two oceans could have so embroiled itself in other people's business that someone would want to do it harm. Even sitting in the middle of Europe, Switzerland isn't beset by terrorist attacks, because the Swiss mind their own business.
Lets resolve that we won't let our leaders use this occasion to commit their own terrorist acts upon more innocent people, foreign and domestic, that will inspire more terrorist attacks in the future.




[This message has been edited by Steelgate (edited 12-09-2001).]

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You poor boy, I truly pity you
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I really do wonder sometimes why you bother living here, why not go live in one of those countries you admire so much I'm sure they'ed love to have you in the utopia you seem to think they are.

    warchild
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, the Swiss are left alone, but what does that make them? A bunch of wusses, thats what. What happened during world war 2? They sat on the fence, waiting to side with the winner so nothing bad happened. In a war there is no such thing as neutrality. Countries that duck out are forever looked upon with scorn. The USA and Britain are disliked so much because we decide to intefere. We intefere for vaious reaons. The USA attacked Libya because of terrorism. We attacked Serbia because of the ethnic cleansing, to prevent another tinpot Hitler from coming to power. We attacked Iraq for 2 reasons, for stability, and in order to protect the current life blood of our countries, oil.
    When we do something like this, you can't please everyone. Creating Israel mde the jews happy but angered the Arabs. Invading Iraq made Kuwait and Saudi Arabia happy but angered Iraq and Iran. You cant please everybody Steelgate, you cant do what you are doing and sit on the fence. As the saying goes, you are with us or against us, there is no inbetween.

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Steelgate, you truly are one useless, pathetic piece of shit.

    Keep hiding behind your keyboard if you are going to spew shit like that..... because doing so in person would get the living shit beat out of you. I would enthusiastically invite you to try, sounds if if it would do you some good.


  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NATO was wrong to bomb Serbia for a start becuase although it was ethnicly cleansing Kosovans, NATO member Turkey has been ethnicly cleansing Kurds since 1984 and has destroyed hundreds of Kurdish villages and killed 30,000 people in its war against the Kurds so why was no action ever taken against Turkey. Also the bombing of Serbia targeted Belgarde destroying, schools hospitals and homes and killing thousands of Serb civilians and made the Kosovan refugee crisis far worse as the Serbians took revenge on the kosovans once the bombing started. And how did the bombing of Serbia civilians help the Kosovans. Wouldn't it have been better to send the refugees aid instead of bombing Serbia. The reall reason for the bombing of Serbia was because it refused to comply with NATO to allow NATO troops access to all parts of Yugoslavia. This was becuase NATO countries wanted to extend there influence into eastern europe.

    The bombing of Libya also killed thousands of civilians. The Gulf War of 1991 killed 200,000 Iraqi civilians and was fought to protect the profits of the oil companies. During the 1991 Gulf War tens of thousands of people demonstrated against the war in both Britain and America nearly every week while the war was on. At the start of the Gulf War an Amercan politican said that if Kuwait grew carrots they wouldn't have given a damn about invasion. The current sactions on Iraq have caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians since 1990. Britain and other NATO countries also sell arms to brutal regimes around the world and even sold arms to Iraq before the Gulf War.

    No wars are ever fought for humanitarian reasons they are always fought to defend the interests of the ruling class. For example NATO alie Indonesia invaded east Timor in 1975 and killed a quarter of the population in the civil war with East Timorese resitance yet until a couple of years ago NATO countries still sold arms to Indonesia. Western countries have a long tradition of supporting brutal dictorships around the world when it is in their economic interests to do so. They only declare war on them when they step out of line and do not do what western countries want.

    Vlad, I am not the only one who thinks like this on the internet there are thousands and thousands of us take a look at this site and this one.



    [This message has been edited by Steelgate (edited 13-09-2001).]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Steelgate, so it's OK for anyone else to have war as long as it's not us evil white western nations ?

    If the West didn't step in these crappy little 3rd world shitholes would have set their own nukes off by now.

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't think that it is right for any country to go to war. One of the reasons that there are so many wars between third world countries is because of the international arms trade that sells so many weapons to third world countries.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Steelgate:
    I don't think that it is right for any country to go to war. One of the reasons that there are so many wars between third world countries is because of the international arms trade that sells so many weapons to third world countries.

    What a load of shit, people have been fighting wars throughout history, I doubt 1000 years ago there was an international arms trade!
    We fight wars in order to remain in power, it is about dominance and subservience, the very elements of human nature. You cannot stop people from fighting wars, the only difference is, when a Western country fights a war there is a big outcry, do you know why? Because we are the only countries with the ability to kill millions. But we don't, we are the only countries in the world that show even a degree of restraint, if we didnt every country in the middle east would be a smouldering nuclear wasteland with small US and UK outposts present in order to extract any resources left behind and kill of the remaining populations and their shambling mutant brethren.

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NATO was wrong to bomb Serbia for a start becuase although it was ethnicly cleansing Kosovans, NATO member Turkey has been ethnicly cleansing Kurds since 1984 and has destroyed hundreds of Kurdish villages and killed 30,000 people in its war

    You have some SERIOUSLY fucked up morals..Since when do two wrongs make a right? Just because one incident of genocide was ignored for whatever reason then every other act of genocide should be ignored on principle? Man are you fucked in the head.

    By your reckoning we should have ignored the Jews being wiped out in Germany in WW2. After all we didnt go to war over the Armenians so we shouldnt go to war over the Jews...right?
    Wouldn't it have been better to send the refugees aid instead of bombing Serbia.

    Oh I see, and exactly how many active war zones have you tried to get aid into? You expect to send aid workers into the middle one of the most vicious civil war arenas on the planet. Or should they have send the aid directly to Milosevic to distribute?? Im sure that would have got down to the refugees.

    Your arguments are completely flawed.
    Vlad, I am not the only one who thinks like this on the internet there are thousands and thousands of us

    That seems to be two websites, am I missing the other thousands and thousands somehow?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    We fight wars in order to remain in power, it is about dominance and subservience, the very elements of human nature.
    That's not my nature mate. Try looking around. Not everyone's a **** . Perhaps if you were nicer yourself you'd realise that. What's wrong with wanting peace?
    What a load of shit, people have been fighting wars throughout history, I doubt 1000 years ago there was an international arms trade!
    Baldog hit it one the head here. Two wrongs do not make a right. Just beacuse something happens all the time does not make it OK. Rape happens all the time. Is that OK by you too?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Balddog, the bombing of Serbia did not help the Kosovans one bit as once it started the serbian army took revenge on the kosovans and vastly increased the ethnic cleansing of all kosovans. Kosovo was not a total war zone like you said until after NATO started bombing, so it would have been possible for aid agencies to send aid. There is no such thing as a "just war". Wars are fought over markets, investment outlets, raw material sources and trade routes and strategic points to control them. The war against Serbia was no exception. The real reason for that war was Serbias refusal to comply with NATO and allow NATO troops access to all parts of Yugoslavia not to help the Kosovans.

    NATO countries have not only ignored Turkeys atrocites they have continued to supply Turkey with arms which shows that wars are not fought for humanitarian reasons. During the war against Serbia the NATO bombing raids on Yugoslavia were aimed not just at direct military targets but at the industrial infrastructure of power stations, fuel depots, factories, chemical plants, roads, railways and bridges which serve civilian purposes as well as supplying the Serbian military machine. This resulted in the killing of thousands of innocent Serb civilians. There was also a large anti-Milosevic movement in Serbia before the bombing which disintergrated once the bombing started. Support for Milosevic also went up once the bombing started.

    Thousands of people also demonstrated against the war against Serbia in London if you can remember. There were also mass pickets of several thousand people outside Downing street against the bombing as well.

    As for the Jews who died in Germany. Germany only started mass genocide of the Jews after the war started and the war didn't help them as six million of them died during the war as well as 50 million other people. So some good world war two did. World War to was also fought for economic reasons anyay not to protect the Jews.




    [This message has been edited by Steelgate (edited 13-09-2001).]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Balddog, the bombing of Serbia did not help the Kosovans one bit as once it started the serbian army took revenge on the kosovans and vastly increased the ethnic cleansing of all kosovans.

    Oh my god. So we shouldnt have bothered trying to help them then? We shoulda just sat back and watched? If someone is already ethnicly cleansing an area then how can they increase the ethnic cleansing? ethnic cleansing means getting rid of all members of an ethnicity...How can they increase their plan to remove all the muslims?
    Kosovo was not a total war zone like you said until after NATO started bombing, so it would have been possible for aid agencies to send aid.

    Bollocks..the entire area was filled with partisans. Civil war does some shitty stuff to a country. You dont think that the Serbs might have tried to intercept some of the aid you were sending to the refugees?
    power stations, fuel depots, factories, chemical plants, roads, railways and bridges which serve civilian purposes as well as supplying the Serbian military machine.

    The reason they did this is simple. You included it in your post....AS WELL AS supplying the serbian military.
    Thousands of people also demonstrated against the war against Serbia in London if you can remember.

    No I dont remember. I was young at the time. What exactly were they protesting against? The war against serbia? They were protesting against the stopping of a regime that is ethnicly cleansing an area?
    Germany only started mass genocide of the Jews after the war started and the war didn't help them as six million of them died during the war as well as 50 million other people. So some good world war two did.

    Why the fuck did we bother then right???You make me sick. If we didnt get into the war a fuck of a lot more than 6 mil jews woulda died..You can include the poles, jews, gays, gypsies, politcal dissidents, slavs, blacks, asians etc etc.

    Tell me again how many people have been killed by people trying to implement socialism??


  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Steelgate

    If the US, UK and the rest of Europe was as easy going as Switzerland, the UK would now be an Islamic nation and most of us would be dead.

    This is a clash of culture and Ideology and the next couple of months will dictate the future World Order. Islam is a crusading, intolerant religion and all Moslems believe in the Islamination of the world. The west must stand up to them and at the least keep them week and penned back into the Middle East.

    P
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    WTF for one dipshit, Iraq happened to have the 4th largest army in the world, supplied with the latest and greatest military equipment. I'm sure you don't know the abilities of their SAM's but I'll give you a hint. If it wasn't for people like me, all our planes would have been in the ground, permenatly!

    So what your saying is if we sit back and do nothing that we will be in peace. You fucking pinko communist piece of shit. What is you problem. Hopefully when we go after everyone that is involved we could edify people like you too, to bad there isn't a ammendment to our freedoms to get rid of the likes of you.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Balddog, before NATO started bombing Serbia only a few thousand Kosovans had been forced out of Kosovo. No more than in many other war zones in the world. The reason Serbia gave for this was to smash the KLA strong holds from which it had been launching terrorist attacks in Serbian cities to demand independance of Kosovo, not to ethnicaly cleanse the entire Kosovan population. After the bombing the Serbian army started to ethnically cleanse hundreds of thousands of Kosovans from all parts of Serbia in revenge for the bombing. Also thousands of Serb civilians were killed in bombing raids on Belgrade these people were not responsible for what Milosevic was doing. As I have said before the war against Serbia to allow NATO countries access to all parts of Serbia not to help the Kosovans.

    Thousands of people demonstrated against the bombing of Serbia in London as I have said before. You should have remembered this as it happened in April 1999 not that long ago.

    I don't think that World War Two was justified at all. As I have said before World War Two was fought for economic reasons, it was a battle by rival capitalist powers for the control of markets, access to raw materials and trade routes. These diputes could have been settled peacefuly without resorting to war. War was in fact put of for quite a long time after the invasion of Poland. War only broke out after no side would back down on its demands. Before the war started there was no plan of mass genocide of Jews or anyone else. And 55 million people died and millions more were injured in that war how can you justify that. Also after the war one brutal regime was swapped for another as eastern europe was occupied by the soviet union which imposed brutal dictatorships on those countries.

    Also no one has died from people trying to inplament socialsim. Socialism means the democratic control of the means of production by the workers. That was never implamented in any country that claimed to be socialist. Most socialists do not believe in using violence to establish socialism. Only a small minority of socialists have ever advocated using violence to achieve socialism.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Steelgate:
    Before the war started there was no plan of mass genocide of Jews or anyone else. And 55 million people died and millions more were injured in that war how can you justify that.

    Where the hell do you get your information? It is well known historical fact that Hitler had a long, deep running hatred of Jews, he blamed them for the cause of Germany's ills. It is well documented that the "final solution" would have happened regardless of a war or not, the only difference is he waited longer so he could use them as forced labour for his war machine. If there had been no war he would not have needed them and killed them a lot sooner, along with any other ethnic/social/political minority he came across. He was also committing these attrocities several years before the war started, very few people within the allied nations had any idea apart from unconfirmed reports of anything resembling his death camps.

    So let us recap, Steelgate the jews would have died regardless. If he hadn't needed them he would have disposed of them more quickly than he did.

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    America funded and armed these people,encouraged a pan-Islamic army in Afgahnistan.
    Apparently there are Algerians,Saudis,Pakistanis,Chinese etc in these camps.
    The USA created this force and now theyve turned against them.
    If the USA think Vietnam was bad wait till they arrive in Northern Afgahnistan!
    The Islamic fighters are not going to run.
    America has had a seriously bad influence in the Middle East backing a highly un-democratic state in Israel and states like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia who are hated by ordinary Arabs..
    If this turns into serious war we are all fucked!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    WhoWhere, the plan by Hitler was originally to expell all Jews from Germany and relocate them in Madagascar. That was the original final solution. There were no death camps until the war started and made this plan impossible. There are also many brutal dictatorships where minorities are persecuted but we don't declare war on them. Spain, Portugal and the soviet union were brutal dictatorships at the time.

    The second world war was the most destructive ever in world history and blazed all over europe north Africa and the far east. The figure of 55 million dead is correct. I have read it in many books and in many articles. Millions more people were made refugees and millions more people were injured. The cost of rebuilding europe and the damage ran into thousands of billions of pounds as well. All the war did was to replace on brutal dictorship in europe with another, the dictatorship of the soviet union. This was a war that should have been avoided at all costs.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Steelgate:
    All the war did was to replace on brutal dictorship in europe with another, the dictatorship of the soviet union. This was a war that should have been avoided at all costs.

    Which was everybody? SOCIALISM at its finest. Well done Steelgate.

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You know what REALLY made me laugh in all this - not the preposterous charge that all the 'west' does is wrong, or Steelgate's assertion that had NATO not intervened then Slobba would have sent all the Kosovans home with a nice packed lunch and a 'I'm Sorry' card, nor was it his idea that if the Allies hadn't stood up to Hitler then the 'final solution' wouldn't have been so bad and that the Jews would have been able to live in Madagascar in peace (approx six million were killed - how big IS madagascar?).

    No what REALLY made me laugh was the example of a peace loving nation in Europe. Switzerland - banking capital of the world and one of the most capitalist countries around. ROFLMFAO.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent:
    how big IS madagascar?

    Bloody huge. Look at it on a map. 1/4 to 1/3 the length of Africa! Lots of jungle, though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As a simple answer to the original question....

    Our governments will never learn. nor will 'their' governments. Untill some serious changes happen, war will always rage, and america, or NATO, will always interfere (for better or worse, sometimes its a good thing, sometimes its not).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Man of Kent, you don't seem to understand that the bombing of Serbia was not actualy done to stop ethnic cleansing of Kosovans that was just an excuse. The real reason was to allow the expansion of western style capitalism into eastern europe and to force Serbia to adopt a western style free market economy. That war killed thousands of Serb civilians and devastated Serbian towns and cities and cost billions.

    The second world war was fought for economic reasons too. Not to save persecuted minorities. Hitler began persecuting the Jews years before war was even considered and Britain considered Hitler a friend at first before he invaded Poland. No war is ever fought for humanitarian reasons, wars are fought over markets, trade routes and access to raw materials. Check out www.antiwar.com.



    [This message has been edited by Steelgate (edited 15-09-2001).]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by MacKenZie:
    Bloody huge. Look at it on a map. 1/4 to 1/3 the length of Africa! Lots of jungle, though.

    Oops, doofus. Looked now - ok 6m WOULD have had room...

    Still doesn't remove the main point though. The 'final solution' was changed and it wasn't the allies who decided to kill them. Was it Steelgate?

    If NATO hadn't bombed Serbia, what do you think WOULD have happened to the Kosovans? What happened in Bosnia/Croatia?

    As for WW2, I'll tell those at the rememberance services that they didn't fight tyranny then shall I? There certainly was a economic aspect, I don;t think anyone would disagree, but do you REALLY think that we'd have been better off under the Nazis? What did they do to socialists?

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    steelgate, how sick can you get????? thousands of Americans have just died and all you have to say in effect is they had it coming! all your arguements are flawed and contrasting and you think you know alot more than you actually do. We thought Hitler was a friend??? so why was we building up our armed forces years before the invasion of poland?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by peacechild:
    Steelgate, so it's OK for anyone else to have war as long as it's not us evil white western nations ?

    If the West didn't step in these crappy little 3rd world shitholes would have set their own nukes off by now.


    If the west didn't step in these crappy little 3rd world shitholes wouldn't have wanted to set off their nukes.

    I too am truly sickened by what happened but we have been killing their civilians for a long time now for their goverenments sins.

    You'd be suprised how unpopular saddam is in his own counrty but if they speak out against him they face death.

    I am all for world peace but sadly it is too late for that now, our goverments are pissed off and the population aren't being listened to anymore. I kind of feel a little helpless as all the people of this country can do is run for cover and pray.

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    also steelgates "insane" views are in fact an article from the site.
    http://www.antiwar.com/orig/browne2.html

    hate isn't without fuel. something must have fueled these people into this action and they wouldn't have popped off at an innocent country. their actions are totally over the top but these things happen all the time.....columbine, jonesboro, santana, port arthur and many other hate related shootings.

    hate can make you do terrible things.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    also steelgates "insane" views are in fact an article from the site.

    ROFLMAO..I shoulda known this was just one of his normal copy and paste jobs. This man has NO ideas and opinions of his own..He steals everything from other people.
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