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On Abortion
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Subject: On Abortion
I know we've had this debate before, but new ideas always surface and deserve an airing.
I've recently finished reading Godless Morality: Keeping Religon Out of Ethics by Richard Holloway (Canongate, 1999). One of the issues Holloway covers is that of abortion. He touches (with the help of several quotations) on a few important points which I'd like to raise here:
(1) The Beginnings of Life
Holloway recognises that 'life', as such, is a continuous process. If we try to say "The foetus is alive now," we run into difficulties. The egg is 'alive' before conception; the sperm is wriggling well before it meets the egg. We need to differentiate between the questions "When does life begin?" and "When does a life begin to matter morally?" Suggestions anyone? I can't say I found his suggestion (from John Harris) that a 'person' is any being capable of valuing its own existence very convincing: a mouse clearly has a self-preservation instinct. Is this self-valuation?
___
(2) Exceptions to the Rule
Examining the other side of the coin, Holloway shows in what I think is a fairly convincing manner the pitfalls inherent in opposing abortion on human rights grounds.
So, having thrown a few logs on to the fire, what are people's opinions on the matter? Can the human rights approach be reconciled with exceptions on grounds of rape, incest &c.?
I know we've had this debate before, but new ideas always surface and deserve an airing.
I've recently finished reading Godless Morality: Keeping Religon Out of Ethics by Richard Holloway (Canongate, 1999). One of the issues Holloway covers is that of abortion. He touches (with the help of several quotations) on a few important points which I'd like to raise here:
(1) The Beginnings of Life
Holloway recognises that 'life', as such, is a continuous process. If we try to say "The foetus is alive now," we run into difficulties. The egg is 'alive' before conception; the sperm is wriggling well before it meets the egg. We need to differentiate between the questions "When does life begin?" and "When does a life begin to matter morally?" Suggestions anyone? I can't say I found his suggestion (from John Harris) that a 'person' is any being capable of valuing its own existence very convincing: a mouse clearly has a self-preservation instinct. Is this self-valuation?
___
(2) Exceptions to the Rule
Examining the other side of the coin, Holloway shows in what I think is a fairly convincing manner the pitfalls inherent in opposing abortion on human rights grounds.
___From Godless Morality:
The permission to abort in order to save the mother's life is the most obvious exception made by otherwise conservative opponents of abortion, but they do make other exceptions to the absolute rule, such as accepting abortion after rape or incest. Dworkin writes:
The more such exceptions are allowed, the clearer it becomes that conservative opposition to abortion does not presume that a fetus is a person with a right to live. It would be contradictory to insist that a fetus has a right to live that is strong enough to justify prohibiting abortion even when childbirth would ruin a mother's or a family's life but that it ceases to exist when the pregnancy is the result of sexual crime of which the fetus is, of course, wholly innocent.
So, having thrown a few logs on to the fire, what are people's opinions on the matter? Can the human rights approach be reconciled with exceptions on grounds of rape, incest &c.?
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Comments
Now im an agnostic, I think <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif"> So any arguments I have have nothing to do with God and his book of fun.
I strongly believe abortion should be illegal. It snuffs out a life..I dont give a crap if someone says 'well its not alive while in the womb' blah blah blah..Its the possibility of a life im talking about. If it werent for that doctor then there would be a baby.
Abortions are far too convenient in this country..I dont see why someone should have the right to take away another life just because she couldnt keep her legs closed and her man couldnt keep his trousers zipped. There are so many forms of contraception that work very well today so the only excuse for having a kid that you dont want(enough to kill said child) is laziness or rape.
If a couple cant be arsed to use protection then they should have to live with the consequences. Why should they be able to kill the life they made just because they cant be bothered to raise it.
In the case of rape I dont have much of a problem. I dont know figures but id hazard a guess that most rape victims dont feel good about the prospect of having their rapists kids.
I also have no problem with abortion to save the mothers life.
My views are based purely on my ideas of personal responsibility. I dont take much notice of people who scream about religious reasons against abortion..My views are just practical.
In summary..If you dont want a kid, USE GODAMN PROTECTION...If you dont have any to hand, KEEP YOUR FRICKIN LEGS CLOSED
"An Englishman's never so natural as when he's holding his tongue." --Henry James
what about when contraception fails, through no fault of the couple? it does happen. condom splits, the pill isnt 100% successful. its a bit unfair to condemn all couples with unwanted pregnancies on stupidity or laziness.
ill write a proper post myself later on.
Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.
Id actually be interested in finding stats for this..anyone got a clue where I could find such numbers? Pregnancies caused by contraceptive failures?
"An Englishman's never so natural as when he's holding his tongue." --Henry James
I think its a really difficult topic to be honest and nobody can really understand fully why people choose to either have one or not, unless they have been in the position themselves.
There is no right or wrong, only personal choice and the only ones to make that choice r the unfortunate ones going through it!
I know myself that I am not against abortion and as much as I dont like the thought of it I realise for some people it is the best and most practical thing to do. A friend of mine was pregnant after a rape and theres no way she could have had her rapists baby... who could??!!
I also think if u r young, and having a baby is simply not what u r capable of handling then its the right decision to not have the baby. The only time Im against abortion is when a person uses it as a form of contraception and does not care or even try to prevent it happening again... that is extremly selfish and makes me sick!
Thats about it really, but whatever a person chooses to do its never an easy decision to have to make and its good to keep in mind that its the girls who have to deal with whatever the consequences r...its easy for a man to say abortion is wrong when they r not the ones carrying the baby in my oppinion!
From memory, Condoms have a 97% success rate, which means that 3 of 100 couples using the product exactly as directed will conceive in a year. The pill (from memory) has a 99% success rate, again IF taken exactly as instructed. The actual failure rates are obviously much higher.
If a young girl is having a baby she isnt capable of handling then why the buggery hell didnt she use contraception in the first place. We need to stop giving abortion lessons to kids and teach them more about using their brains.
Surely that means that the girls should be extremely careful then?
Well its plain that contraception needs to be improved. I have no problem with aborting pregnancies that result from failed contraception as the couple made every effort to avoid conception and failed due to no fault of their own.
"An Englishman's never so natural as when he's holding his tongue." --Henry James
not dat i necessarily strongly feel 4 1 decision. i think that its up 2 the individual ((couple).
but i do think now adays they r 2 easy 2 cum by, and people use em as a form of contraception, which makes me mad.
up untill a few months ago i swore by if i got pg i'd have 2 keep the babby, but now im not 2 sure.
but by sumint like 12/16 wks baby is pratically full developed and just needs 2 grow. which puts me off abortions big style. people say its just a blob a jelly, which is a load a shit, by week4 its hearts beating. and it blatently gonna b a human so it aint jelly.
and i also think havin a baby aborted up 2 26 wks is majorly wrong.
wen i woz on maternity 4 my college placement there was a lady havin twins and she woz bleeding badly and she woz 25 wks and 4days, so just in range of havin a abortion if she wanted. and i was told cause of that if they had 2 b delivered with in the 26 wks if they didnt gasp 4 air wen born then they wudnt resusitate them! that realy cut me up.cause there is a chance they cud survive, only a slim 1 but that aint the point.
basically abortion is murder, i prob gonna b hated 4 sayin that, btu killing a live thing/baby is murder no matter wot ne1 ses.
but then id rather sum1 had an abortion than 2 have the baby and neglect it and not love it.
Personally, I think it's a tad harsh to deny abortions on the grounds of "Contraception's available and it's your fault for not using it! Ni!" On the other hand, I can understand that point of view, and could bring myself to support it.
I still think that to oppose abortion outright and then allow certain exceptions (e.g. rape, incest) is an admission that the foetus is not a life worthy of preservation; it is an admission that foetuses are not to be accorded all the rights of a human being.
If murder is simply the premeditated termination of a life, then, yes, abortion is murder. But to leave it at that is to use the word "murder" as a pejorative; it is using an emotionally charged concept to sway an argument that calls for calm discussion and reasoning.
This could be an argument against contraception too. If it wasn't for the condom, there would be a baby. It's the possibility of a life...
I understand what you mean tho'.
I work in the NHS. In a previous position I arranged operations, with TOP (termination of pregnancy) being one of many we did.
Personally, I am anti-abortion, but I accept that other people have differing views, and I understand that a rape victim may not want to bear that rapists child ("if it wasn't for a doctor..."). This HAPPENS, I have witnessed this myself and seen the shell of a woman be admitted following this heinous act, just to have further reminder of that attack removed from her body.
There are times when abortion in necessary and perhaps there should be greater restriction on those times when it is allowed, but I believe that total ban is short sighted.
Slightly offensive, dude. This implied that it the woman's fault. I remember you posted elsewhere that it takes two to make a baby - a woman AND a man. Perhaps he should keep it zippered...
Here, here. What is it they say? "Rules are for the blind obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men."
Of course abortion isn't something to be undertaken lightly. Women don't need reminding of this in the least: they are the ones who suffer all the physiological changes that pregnancy brings. The male experience of pregnancy is so utterly removed from the female that we (men) shall never really know what it feels like for them (women). The last time I checked, civilized nations were pledged to allow compos mentis citizens the benefit of choice.
I have to agree that talking about 'potential lives' is dangerous. The sperm and egg, individually, are 'potential lives'.
Let's not forget that the vast majority of conceptions end in miscarriage: the human system is ruthless in terminating pregnancies that seem to bear genetic defects, usually within weeks of implantation. (Not meant to imply anything other than that a failed pregnancy for whatever reason is not uncommon.)
Ah well but how far you wanna take it..If it wasnt for abstention there would be a baby.. <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif">
I agree. Thats why I made exceptions for rape victims and mothers with health problems. Each case should be checked individually.
Well if you read all of that post you would have seen I did state that the man should keep his trousers zipped..I only said keep legs closed in the summary...Its just as much the mans fault for being lazy as the womans.
"An Englishman's never so natural as when he's holding his tongue." --Henry James
I don't think I would abort under any circumstance, but I can't imagine what I would do to save my life. Of course, the matter is purely acadermic.
I have difficulties over abortion, while my position is it is the woman's right to choose, I can't help thinking about the father, but I can't for moment accept that the fathers views outweigh the mothers.
I have a similar niggle - if it is alright for a mother to abort over the wishes of the father shouldn't the father have the right choose that his child not be carried. For the time being this is moot, as there are no riskless abortions (morning-after waved away as being a failure to implant, and so technically not an abortion - same as the coil is a contraceptive, and not an issue by the time the question comes up)
Where both parents are in agreement Ihave no difficulty, otherwise, I uncomfortably support the womans right to choose.
Abortion, and the UK Abortion rules, are undeniably correct in their current guise. It is not a matter of having an abortion one dinnertime cos a baby would be inconvenient- the law stops that. This is just another instance of the religious, moral mafia making things up to suit there own needs.
Abortion is not murder either, and something no woman who chooses to abort enters into lightly. As stated before, yes, the foetus is technically alive from before conception, but as a fully self-supportive human it is not alive until about 30 weeks- way after the 24 week limit. A woman who decied to abort has made a decision that she is unable to support any prospective child, and, as such, she should not be vilified as being a slut who cant keep her legs shut- yet another old chestnut of the conservative moral mafia.
Accidents do happen, no matter how hard people try, contraception DOES fail- condoms and the pill are not failsafe, even when used correctly. Which quite often does not happen. And even if contraception is not used, why should a woman be forced to carry to term something she does not want and cannot support. Adoption is not a realistic option, as this only causes mental harm to the child later- how would YOU cope with fidning out you were an unwanted mistake? And I agree that the father should have no legal right to stop an abortion, even if he agrees to support the child- it sint him that has to carry the baby to term.
BUT, Im not pro-abortion, Im pro-choice. A woman should have the right to choose yto terminate a pregnancy or not. It ISNT ideal, but a woman should be supported not vilified. And a hospital-based procedure is safer than the back-street operations of the 1950s and 1960s. The woman has the right to choose, and no moral blackmail (eg calling it murder, saying she will face the Wrath of God, etc) should be brought into the equation. Either way, it is the woman who has to live by her decisions, not the Holier Than Thou conservative Church leaders.
PS, isnt it ironic how many pro-lifers go around killing abortion sugeons? Funny way of supporting human life that.
It matters not who won or lost, but how you place the blame.
No it doesn't, if only it did. Then I wouldn't have arranged for the same woman to have three abortion over an 18 month period. The current law DOES allow abortion on demand.
They also tend to support the death penatly too.
By killing the surgeon though they claim that they SAVE lives - those that he/she would have terminated. That's the twisted mentality you need to apply there.
but for my general opinions on abortion, i agree with what kermit has said.
Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.
<IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/tdo13.gif">
sometimes you've just got to keep going....
<IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/tdo13.gif">
sometimes you've just got to keep going....