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IRA ~ The Only Free Men in the Kingdom?
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Because this site is primarily for youth it occurs to me that the government has abdicated a responsiblity to its subjects.
This is a question...please, a thoughtful question; Does the IRA represent to the british subjects (particularally the young people) the only 'free men & women' in the kingdom?
Yes, they offend with bombings and such...but because they refuse to stand down or kow tow to the crown and turn in their weapons it appears that they have become knights in armour (shiny or not) standing up to tyranny...and if they infiltrate into London and with the armed 'criminal element' march on parlament...will they in fact be able to take the government and thereby brittan?
This is an honestly ask question. Since the subjects have neither arms or even a pike to defend parlament...and there really are outside threats...would the poorly trianed british army even have the manpower to intervene for the 'crown' and prevent direct action on the throne?
Diesel
88888888
This is a question...please, a thoughtful question; Does the IRA represent to the british subjects (particularally the young people) the only 'free men & women' in the kingdom?
Yes, they offend with bombings and such...but because they refuse to stand down or kow tow to the crown and turn in their weapons it appears that they have become knights in armour (shiny or not) standing up to tyranny...and if they infiltrate into London and with the armed 'criminal element' march on parlament...will they in fact be able to take the government and thereby brittan?
This is an honestly ask question. Since the subjects have neither arms or even a pike to defend parlament...and there really are outside threats...would the poorly trianed british army even have the manpower to intervene for the 'crown' and prevent direct action on the throne?
Diesel
88888888
0
Comments
now go away <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/mad.gif">
you're just a moron with one argument.
<IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/tdo13.gif">
Diesel
88888888
<IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/tdo13.gif">
and you present disarmament as a bad thing. for centuries people have been trying to come up with ways to stop wars, mainly by disarming. so less people get killed. i'd say thats a good thing.
you seem to be confusing a number of things here. firstly, we brits do not view ourselves as 'subjects' of the crown, and the monarchy does not see itself as a supreme ruler. instead, we are citizens, living under the auspices of a democratically elected parliament. which defends itself, by virtue of the armed forces (which you seem to underestimate - remember the SAS, oh and we're a member of NATO too). you cannot 'take government' by seizing the crown - we dont live in the 12th century any more y'know. instead, you have to be elected. which is something a terrorist organisation will never be, thank god.
in honesty, i would be prepared to lay down my life to protect the rights and freedoms of the people of this great country, even if i died defenceless. so, diesel, i deeply resent your grave misjugement of the British people, and the way you promote the IRA, who are the lowest of the low. so, get your facts right and start putting your brain in gear, lest you end up in the same category as the terrorists.
NB: today, terrorists in N Ireland fired shots at a playschool full of children. i dont care which group was responsible, but that is just not right. so much for your high opinion of terrorists.
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
The IRA kill innocent people. We the British try to stop them. To kill is the last resort of the British army whereas with the IRA it is the first. These free men you descibe are taking other people lives that are defencless apart from our Britsh army and the RUC who are there to protect them.
As for giving warnings before bombs. In Omagh the IRA gave false warning which resulted in people being directed out of one area into an area where there was a real bomb. The IRA had planned on this and it was aimed to cause maximum damage and loss of life. I think something like 28 people were killed. But that alright in your view because the are demonstrating their freedom with their guns. What you mean is that they are free to kill innocent people, something you seem to support.
You support a minority which is always the loser in a democracy. But this is no reason to resort to violence. I'm not happy that we don't have the right to smoke pot but I don't go and kill loads of innocent people in protest. Issues like this should be sorted by votes and not in a destructive manner. Youse the power of negotiation instead of the power of the bomb or bullet.
Northern Ireland is democratic - the majority of people that live there want to remain British. You are foolish if you can't see that.
Forward ever
Backward never
That traitorous terrorist and rabble-rousing
colonist Thomas Jefferson said:
"No free man shall ever be de-barred the
use of arms."
I wonder what he meant by that?
[This message has been edited by Balddog (edited 20-07-2001).]
As for subjects and citizens...they are easy to tell apart...the citizens are armed!
The only way to defeat guerrilla fighters is to destroy them completely...kill every man, woman and child and leave nothing behind your lines...to do that today is to bring down upon yourself the wrath of the world...so enjoy being the unarmed victims of terror...and watch your backs.
Diesel
88888888
Timothy McVeigh killed somewhere in the region of 300 people with ONE bomb. Some defense your guns were then.
Being 'the most powerful nation on earth' didn't stop you getting your asses whipped in Vietnam of Somalia, did it?
I think you'll find that you biggest weakness is your arrogance - Ho Chi Minh knew that (it was his one redeeming quality) - and you still can't find your arab friend who like to bomb you embassies can you?
Hate to tell you but we, US, didn't get our ass whipped in Viet Nam! We did have a government that never let US fight to win which has never been forgiven by the veterans. It was merely a war that we started in order to keep the people's minds off what was going on at home...a leason that I suggest that the british learn from...all NI is doing is using up resources that could best be used at home...leting both sides settle matters for themselves appears to be abhorent to you...but abandon NI you shall for free men under arms will prevail.
Diesel
88888888
The point being that all your guns and you couldn't stop ONE MAN from killing 168 people with ONE BOMB.
Oh, and 'collateral damage' really means innocent people, including children. What a true patriot he was, Mr McVeigh, killing his own countrymen.
That Govt was bowing to the pressure and protests about the war in their own backyard. At the time thousands of young americans were being sent to die thousands of miles away for the 'rights' of a people who didn't want the interference. Yet those same soldiers (mainly the blacks) didn't have any rights at home. That's why the war ended. That and the fact that Ho Chi Minh was a superb General - something the US never gives him credit for.
This is something we kind of agree on. I think that there SHOULD be a united Ireland. There are many in the UK who feel the same, but we live in a 'democracy' and at the moment the majority of NI citizens have VOTED to remain part of the UK. This will change in years to come but until then we have to defend the rights of those cotizen to self determination. The IRA (who are part of the minority) want to force their will on the population through fear.
You really are wasting your time trying to teach Irish History to someone who studied that very subject <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/biggrin.gif">
As for the blacks not having rights a home during the VN war...guess everyone has an opinion on that issue too. We, the US, bred slaves for a strong back and a weak mind...and mostly that is what he have today. And our jails and prisons proove the point.
Probably can't hold up my end in any discussion today...came down with a chest infection and really don feel well.
I'll be back though.
Diesel
88888888
the IRA kill people. imho that's not a good thing. why is that difficult to understand?
and as for that thing about the British being "subjects" under the Queen - wtf?! that's just so daft it's laughable! have you ever been to Britain? god, I'm actually laughing out loud! the Royal Family are lovely, thank you very much - although perhaps not as intriguing as the American presidents <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/tongue.gif">
I'd say more but I'm tired so I'm gonna go sleep now.
Confidence is the feeling you sometimes have before you fully understand the situation.
- Anon
the IRA kill people to make a statement. imho this is not a good thing. who thinks it is sensible to murder innocents?
"poorly trained british army" - excuuuuuse me! where did you get this information?!
"kow tow to the crown" - having trouble following you here. I can't think of a single Briton who does that. or has ever thought of it. in fact, that idea was such a shock to me just now that I burst out laughing!
do you know anything about the Dunblane massacre? how the whole country and much of the world was in shock? one man killed twelve children (I think they were six-year-olds) and their teacher in about ten minutes. understandably we wanted the gun control laws tightened.
acts like that occur far more often in America. I think last spring (ie. February or so) I heard of two high-school massacres, by some students! - in ten days. what does that say about it?
tired. rambling post. but hey <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif">
Confidence is the feeling you sometimes have before you fully understand the situation.
- Anon
Look at what Ghandi did without violence. Look at what Martin Luther King did without violence.
In the end it is the peacemakers whio will inherit the Earth. At least I hope so!
Violence solves nothing in the end!
Spot on! That's a quality post.
Forward ever
Backward never
Anyway, some interesting threads here but the real issue goes begging...IRA activist have shown that the government can't protect its own subjects...and what to do about it.
As for Ghandi and MLK...what ever possessed you to think that these 'leaders' acted without violence. True, they preached nonviolence...but they practiced terrorism.
Back to the IRA and what to do. It appears that the english and Irish don't like each other very much...and potting a soldier of the queen appears to be high sport in NI...let us suppose the british up and left NI tomorrow! Do you think some of her magisty's soldiers could be enticed back for an occasional 'hunt' on a seasonal basis...like fox hunting?
Diesel
88888888
And it has to be said that UK forces are in Ulster by the will of Ulster's Protestant majority. The partition of Ireland was determined by which areas would stand for Home Rule and which would not. Trust me, had all of Ireland been granted HR we would have seen one hell of a bloody civil war. In point of fact, only the outbreak of WWI stopped such a bloodbath (by months!).
I have no problem with the Irish. I don't think many of the peopel in Britain have. It's the IRA that we have a problem with. Don't confuse the two. The IRA are terrorists. The Irish, even those that don't like the British are generally not into murdering others.
I've met plenty of Northern Irish and most of 'em have been the most patriotic British I've ever met.
Forward ever
Backward never
I have no problem with the Irish. I don't think many of the peopel in Britain have. It's the IRA that we have a problem with. Don't confuse the two. The IRA are terrorists. The Irish, even those that don't like the British are generally not into murdering others.
I've met plenty of Northern Irish and most of 'em have been the most patriotic British I've ever met.
Forward ever
Backward never
I have no problem with the Irish. I don't think many of the peopel in Britain have. It's the IRA that we have a problem with. Don't confuse the two. The IRA are terrorists. The Irish, even those that don't like the British are generally not into murdering others.
I've met plenty of Northern Irish and most of 'em have been the most patriotic British I've ever met.
Forward ever
Backward never
yup yup <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif"> I'm Irish, but I live in England. I don't support the IRA because they're violent. once again I'll say it - "blessed are the peacemakers . . . "
Confidence is the feeling you sometimes have before you fully understand the situation.
- Anon
No disrespect because I like an informed argument but you should have stayed away longer. At least that way you could have become informed.
Is this the same Ghandi who practised and preached sit down protests? The same MLK who had 'a dream' or are you talking about different people, because both of these are renowned for peaceful protest. The only person who cannot see this is you.
Funny that both were shot dead too.
Ho ho fucking ho. Aren't we a wag, and once again you don't let the facts get in the way of your ignorance.
The IRA have actually killed more of their own countrymen than British Soldiers. They prefer to use cowardly bomb attacks rather than face to face gunfights. Each of their bombs is targeted at public arenas, not military targets. In fact the last major bomb (Omagh) was placed in the main street on a Saturday afternoon, The IRA sent warning which actually directed people towards the bomb and not away. Then it exploded. Killing some spanish tourists. Not one of the dead was from the military, or police forces. Like I said, a cowardly attack.
I am FOR a united Ireland, for historical reasons. I cannot support the IRA becuase they are cowardly murderers, who care not for democracy, not because I dislike them for being Irish. Remember it is the citizens of the country who have (recently) voted to remain part of the UK.
And one last thing; If the title of this thread is correct, and the IRA are the only free men in the kingdom, please tell me what they are fighting for. According to you, they already have their freedom
[This message has been edited by Man Of Kent (edited 22-07-2001).]
The largest point the IRA makes is that you are incapable of defending yourself...and from the looks of things it is working.
~ And to be sure, a good IRA man would be the first to loudly and publicaly proclaim a desire for peace...all that mushy, soft headed libaral pap...kind of thing you get from T. Blair.
As for a democracy...you can have it. I live in a constitutional republic which has a democratic form of government...regretfully all democracies commit suicide by voting to themselves largess from the public trough!
Subjects of the queen? Truly you are, even your soldiers bear the crown on their uniform...and while the lads may be willing your 'democracy' has armed them with a Piece of S*it rifle and they aren't even allowed enough ammuniton to learn to use it properly...go figure...if NI invaded with real guns you would have to bomb yourselves in order to fight back...Oh Brave New World!
Diesel
88888888
You seem to be under the impression that Queen Elizabeth is a tyrant under whom the whole population of Britain is in thrall. <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/confused.gif"> one word: why?!
The basic reason the IRA exist is because they want Ireland to be an independent country. Frankly I don't think many Britons give a damn whether it is independent and we're fine about it beoming so! However, the IRA has got mixed up with the religious war going on between Catholics and Protestants and the whole affair has become horribly complicated.
These days it's not about who wins, it's how to extricate oneself from the situation with as much dignity as possible. Nobody wants the killings and bombings to continue; it's horrible and it's murder. That's why the emphasis is on disarmament. Most Irish living in NI want peace too. However, there are groups of terrorists who keep on bombing and killing and the British army (a large number of which are Irish) have to keep the peace. They do so trying to kill as few IRA as possible, but when they do, the IRA fight back. Vicious circle. A nightmare.
I don't quite understand your original question either. Are you asking "would the IRA be able to take over the country?" The answer is no, of course they wouldn't, there are too few of them and the British army is not poorly trained at all. In fact it's one of the most respected worldwide. (and don't give me that spiel about how you "saved our asses" in WW2. you gave the Allied Forces much needed help and for that we're very grateful. end of story).
Anyway, no, the IRA does not represent to the young people of Britain "the only free people in the kingdom." I'm free to do anything and I have no affiliation with the IRA. That goes for everyone I know.
Confidence is the feeling you sometimes have before you fully understand the situation.
- Anon
I find this remark racist and offensive, and it's not acceptable on the boards.