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the big drugs debate

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg, i think you estimation of haow harmful drugs are is way way to high,
    my problem is not really with the direct medical effects as you have told me many times that they are small, but with the addictive quality, I believe that anything that is addictive is very, very dangerous....
    alcohol
    you said yourself on another topic that the alcohol argument was retarded so why do you persist?
    the government works to please society otherwise it gets voted out
    so why should they legalise hard drugs when I imagine that nost of society is against it? <IMG SRC="tongue.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
    legalisation does not automatically mean more users?
    actually I bet it does, more people smoke fags than dope becasue it is legal.....

    peope arn't stupid
    yes they are, thats why so many people smoke, use heroine, drink drive, overdose, get in drunken fights etc. How cna you say people are responsible when the evidence is so overwhelming? <IMG SRC="confused.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    my problem is not really with the direct medical effects as you have told me many times that they are small, but with the addictive quality, I believe that anything that is addictive is very, very dangerous....
    you said yourself on another topic that the alcohol argument was retarded so why do you persist?

    The reason i mentioned alcohol is because it is an example of how a dangerous, addictive substance can be used sensibly, i suspect the same would be said of cocaine etc...... there will alaways be a minority who go to far, but why should a minority be allowed to ruin the majority's enjoyment ?
    Its alao an example of how the government don't have our best intrests at heart when making and maintaing policies <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
    so why should they legalise hard drugs when I imagine that nost of society is against it?

    The recent Observer drugs survey estimated 13 million british adults had used drugs, the majority of which were under the age of 31, within perhaps 15 years, those who've used drugs will be very much the majority <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> You must also bare in mind alot of government propoganda is feed to people, a reversal of drug policy and a resulting fairer, unbiased appraoch to drug education may well bring about a very different public attitude to drugs <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
    actually I bet it does, more people smoke fags than dope becasue it is legal.....

    amongst youths i bet the ratio is far smaller than you imagine, the numbers of people smoking are falling, whilst those using dope are increasing, eventually they'll reverse, each individual is capable of weighing up benefits and risks and that is what is happening, figures on a national scale will only settle out with years.
    yes they are, thats why so many people smoke, use heroine, drink drive, overdose, get in drunken fights etc. How cna you say people are responsible when the evidence is so overwhelming?

    You have either used examples of drunken stupidity there, which would be reduced if drugs were legalised and problems regarding violence wouldn't be associated with drugs, or you've used very small minorities, you can't call an entire nation stupid because a few hundred from millions drink drive <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">, the actions of a stupid minority get highlighted for that reason, whilst the sensible majority go about life.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You have got to way the costs with the benefits, I was pointing out the significant costs of unrestrained drug use...

    You argue that legalising drugs will make people happier but that isn't certain.....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>
    You argue that legalising drugs will make people happier but that isn't certain.....</STRONG>


    I'm aruing legalisation will be of benefit to this country in numerous ways
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How about this Toadborg ?

    A drugs lisence ?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>I was pointing out the significant costs of unrestrained drug use...</STRONG>

    The way I see it, that's what we have now. Make the law work with the drugs instead of against them! Why the government think they can decide what I'm allowed to put in my body is beyond me. We should have the right to make our own decision on what we want to take, should we not?

    ...and Toadborg, legalisation does not mean more users, the system the Dutch have is proof of this. I don't really see a problem with more users of drugs like ecstasy and cannabis anyway, infact the country's violent crime would probably drop. <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

    Would be intresting to hear what the American's on this board have to say on this subject?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I would expect that legislation of drugs would lead to an increase in users, although not a huge one. I have many friends who do not take ecstasy, one of the less harmful drugs, and when asked why not, they do not say "because its illegal" they say its because they do not want to. If asked why they don't take heroin, I imaginbe that almost everyone would say "because its so dangerous" not "because its illegal."

    If heroin (taking the most controversial drug as the example) was made legal, it could be sold cleanly, without whatever shit gets put in it (a recent survey by the Observer found ground glass and stone in heroin), and it was sold in controlled amounts, alongside education about the drug, the number of deaths, even with the slight increase in users that legislation may bring, would decrease significantly.

    There have been many police officers who have stated that they would prefer the clubs to empty out a load of ecstasy users than a load of drunk people. There would be a huge decrease in violence, as well as (I would imagine from experience) an increase in loved up people, which I see as no bad thing. <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> Most people leaving a club on a comedown merely want to be left alone by others, they don't cause any trouble, and they don't commit any crime other than taking drugs.

    As a smoker, I agree with Toadborg that addiction is a bad thing. However ecstasy is not physically addictive, nor is cannabis. If all drugs were to be legalised, crack or heroin addicts (probably the two most addictive drugs) should be treated in the same way as people addicted to cigarettes and alcohol. They should be given support and help if they want to get off the drug.

    If a complete legislation of drugs were to come about, one of the first things to do would be to launch a huge advertising campaign, explaining what each drug does and how it does it, explaining the risks of every drug, and how to minimise these risks. Safety comes with knowledge. If all users are educated as to what the drugs do and how to avoid risks they should be able to make their own decision. As said before, I don't think that huge amounts of people will start taking drugs if they are legalised because it is not the fact that they are illegal that they are not taking them now.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by MattBomb:
    <STRONG>I want to see cannabis leaglised as its so widely used and so harmless to people!</STRONG>

    And just how is removing the ability to think clearly "harmless"? Are you seriously telling me that someone totally stoned out of his head can think with just as great agility and accuracy as when stone-cold sober?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by MacKenZie:
    <STRONG>

    And just how is removing the ability to think clearly "harmless"? Are you seriously telling me that someone totally stoned out of his head can think with just as great agility and accuracy as when stone-cold sober?</STRONG>

    If legalised/decriminalised it should be treated the same way as alcohol, in the way that it would not be accepted to turn up at work stoned, and drug driving should be punished severly. If we are given the responsibilty, we should be responsible.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I havn't got time now but.....
    cannabis anyway
    cannabis is the most boring drug in the world if legalising = more users = more boring people then i am against it <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The drugs license idea is OK but I think it open to abuse and because of the number who will not have licenses their would still be an illegal trade in drugs with all the reprecussions that you want ot remove......

    There is also the question of expense, if you are hooked and you can't afford it then you are more likely ot commit crime.....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>There is also the question of expense, if you are hooked and you can't afford it then you are more likely ot commit crime.....</STRONG>

    That's not drug use, it's abuse. Not what I'm campaigning for. You agree with alcohol remaining legal, but I doubt you support alcohol abuse and addiction? I am very much against addiction and abuse of drugs.

    Toadborg, do you think the system we have now is working then? I don't, and I think a brand new attitude is needed, and this is the point I'm trying to argue. You are quite happy to pick holes in our vision but you havn't made clear what you think should be done about the drug 'problem'.

    Do you think what we have now is working or would you get tougher? It's plain you don't support legalisation. What sort of policies would you support?
    Originally posted by Mackenzie
    <STRONG>Are you seriously telling me that someone totally stoned out of his head can think with just as great agility and accuracy</STRONG>

    How many people do you think call in sick every day in this country through having a hangover? Then there are those that bother to go but are so hunger over they are useless and in some cases dangerous.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    vision but you havn't made clear what you think should be done about the drug 'problem'.
    quite deliberately <IMG SRC="tongue.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

    I think the state should offer full support to those who abuse drugs......

    I see no reason why drugs that are proved to be harmless (or very near) should not be legalised but there should be tight controls

    We must look at why people become hooked on hard drugs, improving education and tackling poverty are vital......

    Harsh sentences must remain for those whose behaviour whilst on drugs threatens other people......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I pretty much agree with everything you just wrote. <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
    <STRONG>I think the state should offer full support to those who abuse drugs...... </STRONG>

    Yep...cause addiction isn't a crime it's an illness, and ilness that people need help with to overcome not court dates and prison sentances.
    <STRONG>I see no reason why drugs that are proved to be harmless (or very near) should not be legalised but there should be tight controls </STRONG>

    Drugs like cannabis and ecstasy should be legalised with tight controls and should be taxed in much the same way as weed in Amstersdam. Posession of any drug should be a non arrestable offence and sentances for supplying drugs should be made harsher.
    <STRONG>We must look at why people become hooked on hard drugs, improving education and tackling poverty are vital...... </STRONG>

    Some poeple such as Kentish believes that education is dangerous because it can be seen as encouragement, but I believe it is one of the most important thing this government need to improve, whether drugs are to be legalised or not. The government and media need to stop all these scare tactits, they do more harm than good.

    Reseach into drugs like ecstasy is important too. We keep being warned about 'long term effects' yet the government are guessing. They still refuse permission for any sort of proper investigation into drugs like ecstasy. What are they afraid of?
    <STRONG>Harsh sentences must remain for those whose behaviour whilst on drugs threatens other people.....</STRONG>

    Definately. My belief is that we should have the right to take what we want, but when that right interferes with the rights of others, it has to be dealt with.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It would appear Skive that in the end we agree entirely! <IMG SRC="smile.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>quite deliberately <IMG SRC="tongue.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

    I think the state should offer full support to those who abuse drugs......

    I see no reason why drugs that are proved to be harmless (or very near) should not be legalised but there should be tight controls

    We must look at why people become hooked on hard drugs, improving education and tackling poverty are vital......

    Harsh sentences must remain for those whose behaviour whilst on drugs threatens other people......</STRONG>

    Alot of what you say there would be easier to apply under a legalised, controlled system
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do you mean the legalisation of ALL drugs then eb?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Skive:
    <STRONG>Some poeple such as Kentish believes that education is dangerous because it can be seen as encouragement, but I believe it is one of the most important thing this government need to improve, whether drugs are to be legalised or not. The government and media need to stop all these scare tactits, they do more harm than good.
    </STRONG>
    No no no.
    Please don't take my comments on the legalisation hard drugs out of context.

    I think that legalsing hard drugs would encourage more people to use them (I know you disagree).
    Just in the same way that nearly everyone tries alcohol at some point in their lives, I believe that legalising drugs would encourage people to try them.
    When we are encouraging people to try highly addictive drugs, we are creating a whole generation of addicts, and that I cannot agree with.

    Cannabis is an entirely different matter, and my views on that are less clear-cut.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    would encourage more people to use them
    absolutely right, that is why they should never be legal.....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>absolutely right, that is why they should never be legal.....</STRONG>
    <STRONG>It would appear Skive that in the end we agree entirely!</STRONG>
    Which?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hey?

    I was talking about soft or "non-dangerous" drugs, Skive was as well wasn't he?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>Hey?

    I was talking about soft or "non-dangerous" drugs, Skive was as well wasn't he?</STRONG>
    Nope. http://www.thesite.org/cgi-noperl/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000946
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>Do you mean the legalisation of ALL drugs then eb?</STRONG>

    I'm not sure its something you can do half heartedly, i certainly believe addictive drugs e.g heroin, cocaine and crack must be carefully considered as its such a complex situation, however the rest of whats left i believe its certainly the best solution. Its a clear sign things must change when new drugs are becoming more and more popular, (ketamine, which they are now looking at making illegal) the current approach is snow balling down hill fast and its costing lives, time and money in the process. I actually believe a 'drugs license' may work a treat, just so long as much heavier punishments are brought in to run along side it
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>Hey?

    I was talking about soft or "non-dangerous" drugs, Skive was as well wasn't he?</STRONG>

    I was talking about Ecstasy and Cannabis. I believe that convictions for posession of any drug should be stopped, not all drugs legalised.


    Kentish read my reply to Toadborgs post and that explains my views well enough.
    origianlly posted by Kentish
    [qb]I think that legalsing hard drugs would encourage more people to use them (I know you disagree).[/qb

    I do think that there is some truth in that, though most people don't do heroin not because of the law but because they know it would be a bad idea. The law isn't really that effective, most people don't do drugs because they don't want to, not because the law tells them not to.

    You also said believe that education encourages use, but I don't think that's the point. People shouldn't be denied proper and unbiased information on drugs. Education on the real risks, and on saftey precuations are really important.

    Cannabis and ecstasy are two drugs that I think should actually be legalised. We should have licensed premises that sell both and there should be no restrictions on growing cannabis for personal consumption. Both should be regulated and taxed and any body found to be illegaly supplying either should have an instant custodial sentance as should supply of any other hard drug.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The only thing I believe in is Education, you educate people about the risks, what to do etc etc, and then I would be amazed if deaths related to e would not fall. I would never legalise it until proper research is done, but I would downgrade e to class b, maybe even c. Cannabis, decriminalise it. It is no worse than Tobacco, probably, actually definately, better for you. Heroin and Cocaine are different and should remain illegal, as they obviously ruin lives. with e, the only life you could risk is your own. But who the fuck is going to have the balls to do all this? The Lib Dems are the 3rd Party, they will never win power. And, Labour and especially those damn Tories are never going to do anything. Only when our generation, the ones who take pills, smoke spliffs etc grow up will anyone of the main parties do anything. Till then, they appease our parents, and legalising drugs is not exactly a vote winner is it for the old dears!?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ecstasy and Cannabis
    I thought you were talking about them, so was I! <IMG SRC="smile.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

    PS drugs being illegal does not kill people, it is them that put the substance in their bodies.....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>PS drugs being illegal does not kill people, it is them that put the substance in their bodies.....</STRONG>

    No but if they were legal they would be safer regarding no impurities in heroin and no stupid fucktards selling dog worming tablets as ecstacy.
    Also, if drugs were legal would people would be more likely to seek help if addicted (??).

    But you're right that on the whole it is, of course, down to the individual.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Breaking news <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

    It seems alot of what has been said here has been read by those with power <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1963000/1963522.stm
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