If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Read the community guidelines before posting ✨
Rhetorical question...
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Concerning those who post upon the thread of "America strikes again"...
Is your motive in coversation to enquire/understand, or simply an emotional outburst to justify/validate those emotions?
Offered up a perspective from personal experience, of which few of the divergent belief can validate/challenge, WHY the adherence to the emotional supposition, rather than considering a statement from experience?
Individual insecurity amongst the doubters? <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Another attempt to get in a "low blow" against the US, which comes back to jealousy, then the same basic insecurity? <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Just curious as to why supposition trumps experience in your world...
Is your motive in coversation to enquire/understand, or simply an emotional outburst to justify/validate those emotions?
Offered up a perspective from personal experience, of which few of the divergent belief can validate/challenge, WHY the adherence to the emotional supposition, rather than considering a statement from experience?
Individual insecurity amongst the doubters? <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Another attempt to get in a "low blow" against the US, which comes back to jealousy, then the same basic insecurity? <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Just curious as to why supposition trumps experience in your world...
0
Comments
I post because I enjoy the intellectual stimulus of debate outside of my chosen subject, and because I enjoy discussion on points to which there is no right answer.
I hold everyone in this board in respect for their opinion. It matters not to me where you live, or how old you are. If you have relevant experience, then I accept your opinion as that of an expert, and weight it as such. I would not hesitate to disagree with someone who put themselves in that position, nor would I expect deference if I had experience.
I post with considered thought, not experience. But then, I think that I learn from it, and that's why I do it.
Edited because I can't believe that I just responded to a rhetorical question...
[ 21-04-2002: Message edited by: DJP ]
I think I do a bit of both, I like to enquire and to understand, but also to validate my own opinions.
However I have always shown myself willing and open to other opinions. I'm sure others here will verify this.
I question your "experience" because you only ever offer a one sided view. You never seem to be able to accept that there may be other factors to consider in an argument.
From your own personal standpoint you believe that the armed forces and the USA can do no wrong. Whenever anyone challenges that opinion you launch a back lash against them, claiming they are an "ignorant cretin".
I have never made uninformed opinions about the armed forces. You have repeatedly made uninformed opinions about me, my lifestyle and what you think I am good for. Despite me informing you to the contrary.
You see, I don't know if you've chosen to ignore it or not, but I do respect soldiers. I respect what they do. However I will never hold any amount of respect or time for a soldier who claims that he, and he alone is right and that everyone else only spews crap from the "faecal orifices".
And, in case you also ignored those other posts, I am CHOOSING to join the armed forces. I believe you were MADE to join the armed forces.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but surely it takes a lot more courage to sign up to possible death willingly than it does to recieve a conscription notice through your letter box?
Forgive me If I'm wrong, because you never made it clear if you signed up willingly or not.
I'm just peeved with your lack of respect for me, despite me WANTING to do what you were FORCED to do.
As for supposistion trumping experience, what good is experience if you only experience one side of the argument, when others like myself have the ability to step back and examine the argument from both sides?
p.s.Why exactly do you write in fancy, old English prose? Do you think it makes you look more intelligent? When in fact it makes you look quite pretentious?
The constant italics and bold also make reading extremely annoying.
Is Thanatos unable to use language to enforce a point, so has to resort to obsessive overuse of italics and bold?
He seems to have an obsession with public masturbation, also. His arguments tend to revolve around insulting other parties in the argument in some kind of bizarre attempt to bully them into submission. It really is quite hilarious.
And, according to his rhetoric, everyone on Earth is about to kill me. I must be prepared to kill them first.
Seriously though, a single view simply does not constitute overwhelming evidence. He was in the military, he was in Vietnam. These do not automatically make him world authorities on the subjects, just as me catching a train doesn't make me a world authority on train spotting.
It's time for him to grow up and argue like an adult. I think it was MoK who compared his regular torrent of nonsense to steelgate. I'd tend to agree.
The majority of us who post regularly in Politics are young(-ish Mok <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">) men. This is not a discussion board for soldiers, nor is it a discussion board aimed at gun owners or decrepit ex-Marines.
You are the first to criticise anyone for having an opinion on a war, and cite your own military experience as reason for us to bow down and worship at your feet, whilst believing everything you write.
At the end of the day, you have few points to make, so you fill in space in your posts by insulting anyone you disagree with.
I'm not saying that your opinion isn't valid, but I think you should be prepared to argue your side without resorting to insults to put down anyone who disagrees with you.
If you find that you want to spend your day discussing your latest firearm aquisition then I suggest you find another board to do so. If you want to brag about your military experience, then perhaps there is a board for that too.
If you want to have balanced discussions about topical issues which are relevant to young British people, then theSite is the place to do it.
This is a political forum. People will come here with political agendas and its worth remembering that <STRONG>you</STRONG> joined to argue about a gun thread.
I have no doubt that there are people on here who are anti-american, same as there are anti-gun and anti-just about anything.
As Kentish says if all you want is for us to bow down because you fought in Vietnam or because you have a big gun, then you are wasting your time.
As you argue, you get respect from what you post and you frequently have very good points to make. However too often your posts have no back-up, no points and you then resort to using boy or sheep as if you want to bully people to your way of thinking.
I have to admit that I like a different viewpoint, one that usually opposes mine, because it allows me to validate my position on things. But as I said before, if you wanna post shit like Steelgate does then don't be surprised if we respond in the same way.
I am the first to admit that I don't know much about the military, wars, weapons, etc, but I don't like the fact that every time I make an effort to join in a DISCUSSION (which is after all what this place is for) I get (metaphorically) shot down and patronised.
The boards are for everyone, not just an elite few who already know everything there is to know about the world, and I never realised there were subscribed "rules" of arguing that everyone is expected to follow.
Remember, the wise man is he who realises the limit of his knowledge.
"The mark of intellectual honesty is the solicitation of opposing views"
If that helps at all...
I do not "criticise anyone for having an opinion on a war", but am very critical of them who would suppose themselves capable of the omnipotence of comprehending the combatant's state of mind while in battle and taking fire when they have personally never experienced the moment. Having spent a protracted period of my life within that experience, I agree with virtually all other veterans of actual combat that it is nothing comparable to the civilian experience.
btw ~ y'all needs ta do sum RESEARCH ~ ain't no such a thing as "ex-Marine"... and would be interested in your definition of "decrepit". You might wish to consider that a "broken down old man" who survived moments beyond your meager experiences is by definition "a survivor", and just might bring more to the table than you would guess... <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Unless you have already served, you make them constantly...
Point of Clarification: I received an invitation the the dance while I was in my first year of college, although I had a current student deferment. Rather than dispute the draft notice (which I would have won), and rather than serve as a conscript (which would have meant the probability of seeing actual combat would have been very small), I enlisted in the Marine Corps. That was 1970, while the Vietnam War was going hot and heavy. Had I stood my ground and played the role out, I could have finished college ~ and the war would have been over, or I could have gone to OTC and been an officer during peacetime.
Takes "more courage" to "volunteer" to be an officer during peace time (like you) than to enlist as a "grunt" during a war, does it not? <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
The lot of you (with the exception of Diesel, and anyone else who has actual served in war) have not the basis of perspective of "examining the other side", because you have not been in combat, and have no clue as to what is going on within the combatant's mind, nor what is actions/reactions might be. THAT is the basis of the "verbal masturbation" comments... the self-serving speaking to issues you cannot hope to understand.
You can have all the opinions of whether a war is justified, or necessary, any regardless of how pathetic your position might be, you HAVE the right to them. When you pre-suppose yourself capable of the "omnipotence" of understanding that which you have not experienced - and which by its nature is far removed from your portected civilian world - then THAT is quite over the top...
Funny, neither my publishers nor the editors that have worked with me have taken issue with my speech patterns... <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> Perhaps you should educate them as to the "Olde English" quality... <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
As to your belief that all I have in life is "my newest big gun"... <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> ... my military and combat service was three decades ago, although an indelible component of who I am.
Yes... I post on boards where other fire arm enthusiasts are the norm, and where military active duty and veterans are the norm, and we do not trade "war stories" with each other there. Or anywhere else.
Likely, I have accomplished more in any of several areas of my life than you have in any single area (MoK excluded from that assessment). You are as likely to understand racing motorcycles at the international level as serving in military/combat - and I'll give you a clue - it ain't like your video games. <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> And although I am published concerning those experiences, "war stories" are off limits.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What we are left with is that the bulk of you are teenage boys who would prefer to engage in a circle jerk of illusions and delusions, rather than face the realities of that which you chatter about. You prefer your ignorance, so that you can feel better about yourselves.
So be it.
Does not mean that your stupidity and presumptive wilfull ignorance will go unchallenged... <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
btw ~ SHOULD you actually join the military - whether as an enlisted or commissioned - would that I were your drill sergeant, you would be PT'd until you were either dead, or your arrogance were stomped out of you. I cannot believe that the British military would be so diletante nor effeminate as to differ that substantially from the US military. (If so, I pity your nation...)
You might consider that issue as you chart the future course of your life...
All of us on this board can comment on war and the military as much as we want. However, we may not put forward those comments as absolute truth unless we have experienced those things ourselves and have more than a theoretical understanding.
I like to think I know a lot about the theory of war but I will always defer to a man who has actually lived those things. I wouldnt presume to lecture a rape victim on rape issues, I wouldnt presume to lecture a regular drugs user on the value of drugs, I wouldnt presume to lecture a doctor on his medical care and I wouldnt presume to lecture a soldier on the matters of war.
They all know a hell of a lot more than I do and im perfectly happy to admit that.
PS, I find it quite amusing that some of you are moaning about his impressive use of language and yet most people on this very board go apeshit if someone should dare to use text talk... <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
[ 22-04-2002: Message edited by: Balddog ]
My respects, Sir (even 'though I disagree with you strenuously on other issues <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> )
Maybe drug user and rape victim were bad examples. Lawyer, Doctor or Teacher would have been better <IMG SRC="smile.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
For some reason that comment caught my attention. I entirely agree with it. Combat really is a different world -- and I speak from the point of view of a martial artist rather than a soldier, FYI.
Let me give an example. The other week I was doing some light sparring in training. Now, 'light' just means that your partner will only land light blows -- it doesn't mean things are going to be restrained in any other way, especially not in speed. In order to stand a chance of blocking or deflecting those strikes I had to relax and deliberately disengage my conscious mind from the fight. Had I tried to consciously go "block this one here, block that strike there" I would have been hit 9 times out of 10. When I relaxed and turned off I blocked 9 out of 10 or better.
Afterwards, I realised that I had little recollection of what had happened -- my parnter complimented me on a good strike that I couldn't remember trying, let alone landing.
So, yes, combat is a completely different activity to walking down the street.
Now think about the Bloody Sunday inquiry. That was combat, and 30 years ago, too. You expect those soldiers to remember every detail? No chance. In most cases their statement of "I don't remember" isn't a guilty cover-up: it's a plain fact.
When I hold an opinion of warfare it is usually at a larger, national level. I like to discuss and individual country's capabilities, not the capabilities of an individual.
I believe the ASA thread was the only time I have ever referred to an individual combatant in my time here and I believe that was a justified comment. If it wasn't justified noone else would have agreed with me.
another point of clarification, yes I want to enlist as an officer, however I need t be an officer to serve as a pilot. If I don't get pilot then I will join the Royal Armoured corps. Either way by the time my training is over I will inevtiably see combat.
Baldy, I hate text talk because it is impossible to decipher. "Olde Englishe" is also impossible to decipher.
You say that we have the right to our own opinions, as long as we do not suppose we know how a soldiers mind works when on the battlefield. Yet whenever anyone comes up with an opinion other than yours, on ANY subject, you reply with insults, sheep references (Which frankly get boring) and rarely actually respind to what they say. Its a discussion board, why post if you don't actually discuss?
And to assume that mosr of us are ignorant on most areas of life is simply arrogant. You can not possibly have any understanding of what my life is and has been like. You don't know what I've been through, other than the small fraction of things that I have posted on these boards, probably only this forum. I never asume that I have experienced more than another person, especially if I hardly know them, but then, I have a respect for other people, and they don't have to have the ability to kill a man to earn that respect. You've lived a lot longer than me, and yes I am "only" a teenager. I'm sure you have experienced a lot more of life than me, but that doens't mean I am an ignorant little boy who knows nothing about the real world, and the fact that you think you can asume that without knowing me is proof of your arrogance.
Balddog
Surely this is a hypocrisy(sp?)... unless I have misunderstood, you are saying that while it is wrong to assume knowlewdge about combat, it is fine to assume knowledge about drug use when you have never taken drugs. I, and I'm sure many others, disagree strongly with that. Any drug user will tell you that you can not fully comprehend what it is like, in the same way that anyone who has been to war can not. If you believe otherwise, you are a hypocrite.
You have misunderstood.
Although I'm sure it could apply to some people.
Here is an article that is mostly on point...it is a bit long but worth reading for comparison and to understand or validate the US opinion...well at least the opinion of citizen/patriots of the US.
Enjoy.
<IMG SRC="cool.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">